is it safe buying used boat

[Easedalenovice]

Originally Posted by fastasfox

I have looked into this topic more than most on here..I really dug deep for info and I can tell you that the common failure point is the glue....NOT the material. I have owned several sibs made from Hypalon, and they always let go at the glued seems.
Last year I renewed my tubes on my Tornado at XS ribs/ ri-retube uk and I asked the owner about the battle between PU and Hypalon and he gave me a very honest reply.
When Tornado used to make the tubes out of PU they used to glue all of the seems together, in the same way Hypalon tubes are made. The problem they found out was that with PU, the glue was affected much more by UV and as such seems failed and in later models they rectified the problem by using tape in the seems as to protect them against uv damage.
Xs still make tubes out of PU but now all the seems and the baffling are heat welded and for me it was this that swung it.
So in reality there is nothing between Hypalon and PU fabrics and like others have stated it all boils down to how the RIB has been cared for....garaged is best, but a cover will go a long way to help prolong the life of the tubes.

Always have in the back of your mind that as a rough guide ,new tubes cost around £1000 per meter to replace.

With regards to the saftey aspect of older ribs, you will have to decide what level of risk you want to take and what you want to use the boat for. If you plan on longer trip far offshore then it's vital to know the condition of the tubed. If you just plan on shorter trips close to shore then you may decide the risk level is reduced as the chance of all chambers failing at once are next to impossible.
This is my opinion on the matter, but I'm sure others may disagree.

[beamishken]

Originally Posted by fastasfox

I have looked into this topic more than most on here..I really dug deep for info and I can tell you that the common failure point is the glue....NOT the material. I have owned several sibs made from Hypalon, and they always let go at the glued seems.
Last year I renewed my tubes on my Tornado at XS ribs/ ri-retube uk and I asked the owner about the battle between PU and Hypalon and he gave me a very honest reply.
When Tornado used to make the tubes out of PU they used to glue all of the seems together, in the same way Hypalon tubes are made. The problem they found out was that with PU, the glue was affected much more by UV and as such seems failed and in later models they rectified the problem by using tape in the seems as to protect them against uv damage.
Xs still make tubes out of PU but now all the seems and the baffling are heat welded and for me it was this that swung it.
So in reality there is nothing between Hypalon and PU fabrics and like others have stated it all boils down to how the RIB has been cared for....garaged is best, but a cover will go a long way to help prolong the life of the tubes.

Always have in the back of your mind that as a rough guide ,new tubes cost around £1000 per meter to replace.

With regards to the saftey aspect of older ribs, you will have to decide what level of risk you want to take and what you want to use the boat for. If you plan on longer trip far offshore then it's vital to know the condition of the tubed. If you just plan on shorter trips close to shore then you may decide the risk level is reduced as the chance of all chambers failing at once are next to impossible.
This is my opinion on the matter, but I'm sure others may disagree.

I had similar conversations with the guys at xs who showed me round the factory & facilities. I was there because our sailing club at the time had a 5m xs which literally fell apart at the seams at 7 years old. Xs did the decent thing & helped out with a retube at 50% cost which the club was happy with as the boat was out of warranty by 7 years old. I got a similar explanation to you regarding uv damage to the glue which is the same 2402 for both materials but the reason he said hypalon didnt fall apart like pu was because uv cannot pass through hypalon the same way it can through older pu & pvc which protects the glue from degradation which is why you dont see hypalon seams fail in the way pu seams can fail. He also explained that the newer pu fabrics are now more uv resistant so the remaining glued areas on welded tubes are less likely to fail as they did in the past.
Seam failure wasnt the only issue with pu unfortunately, older pu tubes from the tornado era also suffer uv damage to the surface where it discolours & goes hard & eventually becomes porous & requires complete replacement. Xs claim the newer fabric doesnt do this but imho it hasnt been around long enough to be proven.
I agree the welded tubes & extra abrasion resistance of pu closes the gap on the which is best argument & its a much closer contest now but for me I'd still prefer hypalon & definitely wouldn't consider an older glued seam pu boat which is what the op would be looking at at 15yo.

[fastasfox]

Originally Posted by beamishken

I had similar conversations with the guys at xs who showed me round the factory & facilities. I was there because our sailing club at the time had a 5m xs which literally fell apart at the seams at 7 years old. Xs did the decent thing & helped out with a retube at 50% cost which the club was happy with as the boat was out of warranty by 7 years old. I got a similar explanation to you regarding uv damage to the glue which is the same 2402 for both materials but the reason he said hypalon didnt fall apart like pu was because uv cannot pass through hypalon the same way it can through older pu & pvc which protects the glue from degradation which is why you dont see hypalon seams fail in the way pu seams can fail. He also explained that the newer pu fabrics are now more uv resistant so the remaining glued areas on welded tubes are less likely to fail as they did in the past.
Seam failure wasnt the only issue with pu unfortunately, older pu tubes from the tornado era also suffer uv damage to the surface where it discolours & goes hard & eventually becomes porous & requires complete replacement. Xs claim the newer fabric doesnt do this but imho it hasnt been around long enough to be proven.
I agree the welded tubes & extra abrasion resistance of pu closes the gap on the which is best argument & its a much closer contest now but for me I'd still prefer hypalon & definitely wouldn't consider an older glued seam pu boat which is what the op would be looking at at 15yo.

Yes I remember you telling me about your experience.
How are the new PU tubes holding up?
The new Generation of PU and the welded seems is a game changer.

[beamishken]

Originally Posted by fastasfox

Yes I remember you telling me about your experience.

How are the new PU tubes holding up?

The new Generation of PU and the welded seems is a game changer.

The committee wanted hypalon after the original pu ones failed which xs were happy to oblige with, which actually was good for them as the club ordered their next replacement boat from them instead of ribcraft.

[spartacus]

If safety is critical, then as mentioned the fleet’s age would be a determining factor. You’ve just to look at the current debacle with CalMac to see that running older vessels causes absolute mayhem!

Back to the OP’s question, it’s possible to buy an older rib that still has decent tubes, whether PU, hypalon or even PVC.

Zodiac for example has slide on rail system, you can buy a new tubeset that effectively transforms the boat, but it’s not a cheap option, but there’s no regluing to the hull. Most will be PVC, but some of the Open Pros are available in neoprene/hypalon.

If I was looking at a used Rib, then the condition of the tubes is important. As mentioned, UV sun exposure will fade them. I’d also be looking for factory fitted pressure release valves which protects the internal baffles. Our weather is getting warmer, and the UK has even seen 40 degrees before, so that’s likely to continue during the summer months, especially if you’re on the south coast.

A rib that’s been stored inside would be top of my list, and extras such a wear patches for foot traffic, or deploying ropes and buoys. You can also get clean the tubes with decent cleaners and protect with 3M products to reduce UV exposure. I see Marinestore Chandlery is selling 250ml bottle for £41. That’s absolutely outrageous!

[Caligirl]

If you can afford it, it's better to have a hypalon tubed boat over a PVC/PU one any day. Clearly you can take a look at the tubes and see what wear and tear has been going on - and of course some brands are better than others. But a 15 year old Hypalon RIB that has never been retubed could well get another 10 or more years out of it. Whereas a PVC one simply will not - it's on borrowed time at that point.

The glue point is a good one - not least because you'll find that the glues used with PVC/PU (and indeed rubbing strakes made out of similar material) tend to react with the PVC/PU over time and get gunky - they are difficult to deal with.

Anyone who says that the PVC/PU tube material itself isn't the problem is - candidly - incorrect. It simply isn't as strong/resilient over time - especially in UV - as hypalon. We regularly have to deal with newer RIBs that have been cheaped out in PVC and they are janky - they tear and hole easily and are simply not as tough under use as hypalon. For example: had a 5 year old Brig in the other day - the tubes around the stern - the classic place for the water buffetting and beach dragging damage to happen - were in a rubbish state.

By contrast a near 20 year old Avon Adventure - in white - with original hypalon tubes had zero tube problems at all. Nothing. No patches, and nothing likely to patch anytime. The only issue for that boat was the rubbing strake starting to come away from the boat because it was made of a PVC plastic type material and the glue was degrading it, in combo with the UV.

If you are buying a 5 metre or longer RIB get a hypalon one. Do not be fobbed off by people telling you that PVC is fine - it isn't. It's cheaper, but you aren't going to get longevity from it. Alas we often see people who have bought boats thinking that they are getting a good deal only to find that they are PVC and cruddy and will need retubing - even though someone has used some solvent on them to try to make the tubes look shiny.

For those buying hypalon: make sure you are actually getting hypalon. And also recall that the darker colours of hypalon tend to be less UV stable than the lighter ones. So, for example, you'll often see dusty looking Avon Adventures with the navy tubes - and the white or grey versions will be in a better state. The dusty effect is easily remedied (rather too easy - so be sure to get your RIB inspected before buying at that kind of age).

As for rots around glued areas: if you are looking to buy an older RIB you can always do some simple bubble water tests - just brush water with washing up liquid in it over the seams. Also beware of patches: some may not look patched because they will oftentimes have a similar looking patch on the other side to make things look even. Also remember that a leak in one place - especially on a rubbing strake area or stern areas - may be indicative of bigger issues - air is rather good at sneaking along channels in those places and causing people to patch the wrong place.

More generally: There's nothing necessarily wrong with buying an older RIB - but whenever I do I always buy one that has hypalon tubes, and wouldn't ever bother using PVC or its equivilent to retube. PVC is fine for little cheap dinghy tenders but for proper RIBs it's daft to not spend the extra money on hypalon.

By all means I'm sure there are people who disagree and it's an each to their own situation - but I will simply say that we see way more PVC failures and upset owners who feel let down by their PVC boats than we do with hypalon. Hypalon tubes are a lot more forgiving to fix too.

[Caligirl]

Many RIBs have a slide on rail system tube set - but they still require gluing of strips of material to hold the tubes firmly in place - the slide on system is helpful for positioning the tubes but I wouldn't trust it at all without the extra glued pieces to keep everything watertight and properly in place. (the rail system is great when it works - but its a right pig to pull the tube cords through if there is a rough spot lol! I've had many a "conversation" with a non-cooperative RIB in the past!)

Factory fitted pressure release systems are nice - but aren't necessary if you check your boat regularly or keep it under cover. The colour of the tubes is very important here: if you have black tubes then get the pressure release valves. If you have white ones? Not nearly as important. Candidly more people cause damage to their RIBs by under-inflating them than by over inflating them. Just about everyone who brings their RIB in has the incorrect expectation or understanding of the pressure their RIB tubes should be - and it is nearly always underinflated.

Also: don't listen to anyone who says that the only old or UV damaged tubes are the dusty/matt ones...it is so incredibly easy to make tubes look shiny again (and also very easy for a newbie doing it to overdo it - the solvents are harsh and shouldn't be used by anyone who doesn't know what they are doing!!!) that it's pretty simple to take a haggard looking tube and make it look lovely again in an afternoon. But by that same token simply making the tube look pretty doesn't mean it is actually a decent tube or doesn't have slow leaks etc. If you are buying an older RIB and have the time to do so it's a good idea to have a survey done. And don't buy anything that has patches on it that weren't done by a reputable RIB repair place.

[Caligirl]

You did the right thing getting hypalon. They should last you a lot longer and be less trouble than the PU ones.

[Pete7]

I have always had hypalon ribs, one of the old guard perhaps , the old Barnet ribs were known to have problems so most avoided them. Good to hear that they are now welding the seems.

However, if you do puncture a tube, how do you repair them long term?

Hylpalon is easy, almost bicycle tube type repair techniques.

We have had two PVC dinghies, the first a Suzumar lasted about 20 years, which is fine. The Waveline didn't make a decade. We now have an Avon 208m sib for a tender, so the really good quality hypalon. Just had a good clean to remove the boatyard muck and the transom painted ready for another decade or two.

Pete

[Caligirl]

Originally Posted by Pete7

However, if you do puncture a tube, how do you repair them long term?

Hylpalon is easy, almost bicycle tube type repair techniques.


Pete

Please please don't use the bike tube repair technique - alas for a lot of people who read this they will think it only requires a small patch of hypalon - when actually the patch sizes required are generally far far far larger than many seem to think. Folks also screw up the glue they use.

Please - if you have a puncture or leak in a RIB get it repaired by someone who is qualified to do the repair. Just last week we found what literally looked like someone had used a bike repair patch approach to repairing a scuff puncture on an 8 metre long RIB. Needless to say the patch was horrible - far too small, not prepared properly, and failed dismally during bad weather. There is no "one size fits all" repair approach to a RIB - the location of the puncture makes a big difference to how the repair should be done. Also to do it properly may require an internal patch in addition to an external one - you'll find that tears to RIBs (whatever material - but especially PVC which is inherently less strong) oftentimes require this approach - which is difficult even for professionals to do.

The quantity of hypalon/PVC required to patch a problem is often far greater than that sold in little kits - which really should just be viewed as temporary measures anyway.

Given the forces exerted on a RIB - especially ones that are ocean going - it's really not safe to attempt a repair yourself - it would be like someone trying to repair a gash in a car tyre with a bike puncture kit - no responsible person would do that. Far better to have someone who knows what they are doing take care of the repair and do it right the first time than attempt a rookie repair and end up causing even more damage/an unsafe boat.

If this comes across as grumpy it is - we see far far far too many unsafe and really shockingly poor repair attempts on RIBs (in addition to RIBs that have received little to no regular upkeep repairs/normal servicing) - and given many people take kids and guests on their boats it's really rather scary.

[Matt]

Originally Posted by Caligirl

Please - if you have a puncture or leak in a RIB get it repaired by someone who is qualified to do the repair.

What qualification is suggested?

[Nasher]

Originally Posted by Caligirl

Given the forces exerted on a RIB - especially ones that are ocean going - it's really not safe to attempt a repair yourself - it would be like someone trying to repair a gash in a car tyre with a bike puncture kit

Wow, Bet you are a lot of fun to spend time with.

That's probably the best bit of forum scaremongering I've seen in ages.

[Matt]

I actually DO have a car tyre puncture repair kit in one of my cars, since it doesn’t carry a spare.

And I have a bike puncture repair kit for my bike.

And of course, a roll of Hypalon and some bostik 2402.

It’s never been a particular issue in knowing which one is the right one to use, I didn’t accidentally stick the bike patches on the rib the other day. I think. I will have to check.

But what is this qualification I need?

I’m working my way round jobs on the rib at the moment. Generally I’m flicking through the pile of receipts and if I can see a job was done, I know to go and redo it properly, now. The wiring is a work of (modern) art.

[User name]

Well, I have seen some really shocking quality repair attempts, but suggesting repairs should only be done by a qualified professional is over-rating the job a little.

[neil.mccrirrick]

I’ve been subject to some “quality” professional repair jobs and now tend to do it myself

[Caligirl]

Originally Posted by Matt

What qualification is suggested?

Use some ordinary levels of common sense (I realise that assuming a lot of people have this is a bit of a stretch, but hey): find a RIB repair specialist who has been repairing RIBs as a profession for many years, has insurance, and will provide support for the repair they do. Ideally look for people who have boat building and boat materials qualifications. If you aren't sure what those are perhaps you need to do some research on professional qualifications more broadly. If you can't be bothered to do that then ask the RIB building companies/RIB secondary sales companies/RIB charter companies who they use to do repairs on their boats. RIB suppliers of course tend not to send their RIBs back to the factory they came from for warranty repairs. They use local repair specialists to deal with those jobs (including repairs on RIBs that arrive from the factory with tube damage - which a number of them do).

[Caligirl]

Originally Posted by neil.mccrirrick

I’ve been subject to some “quality” professional repair jobs and now tend to do it myself

Then you can't have used terribly good providers - the professionals would have squared away the repair if it failed. It's also the case that there are a good number of people who want to repair what is a pretty much too far gone/unsafe tube. Alas, those people tend to still press for the repair to be done (even having been advised that it would be better to re-tube, or that they aren't using the boat properly/inflating it properly/maintaining it properly) and then of course blame the repair company if and when the repair fails or another one is needed. Sadly this happens a fair bit with people who have PVC/PU tubed boats. They want the tubes to last the same length of time as hypalon but won't listen.

[Caligirl]

Originally Posted by User name

Well, I have seen some really shocking quality repair attempts, but suggesting repairs should only be done by a qualified professional is over-rating the job a little.

Depends on how safe you want your RIB to be. Compare it to a car repair. Do you really want those repairs done by someone in their garage who has zero professional experience? Or would you take it to an insured garage/mechanic with a great reputation? Alas far too many people treat their RIBs (and boats in general) as toys. They forget that they are using them to go into inherently hazardous conditions (oceans or lakes) and should take common sense steps to make them as safe as possible. Making sure the inflation of the boat is done by a professional is common sense really - though given the number of people who go on RIBs and don't wear PFDs or carry basic safety equipment I suppose common sense isn't terribly common.

Only someone who hasn't a clue about the work required in properly repairing a damaged tube - especially one involving a tear - would call the skill over-rated.

[Caligirl]

Originally Posted by Nasher

Wow, Bet you are a lot of fun to spend time with.

That's probably the best bit of forum scaremongering I've seen in ages.

I bet you say that to the people who wear PFDs and have working radios too, right? And view a car MOT and seat belts as a waste of time? Just be sure to declare your cheap repair job when you sell your boat on (something tells me you won't).

[Caligirl]

Originally Posted by Matt

I actually DO have a car tyre puncture repair kit in one of my cars, since it doesn’t carry a spare.

And I have a bike puncture repair kit for my bike.

And of course, a roll of Hypalon and some bostik 2402.

It’s never been a particular issue in knowing which one is the right one to use, I didn’t accidentally stick the bike patches on the rib the other day. I think. I will have to check.

But what is this qualification I need?

I’m working my way round jobs on the rib at the moment. Generally I’m flicking through the pile of receipts and if I can see a job was done, I know to go and redo it properly, now. The wiring is a work of (modern) art.

You understand that car repair kits of that sort are intended for temporary repairs, right? To get you ASAP to a qualified professional (they are called mechanics usually - they work in garages) to put a new tire on your car - or do an insurable job of repairing the tire you already have? Clearly this is news to you.

If only proper repairs were as simple as a "roll of hypalon and some bostik" lol - would love to see you try to attempt an internal repair of a prop tear. Ah well. I just feel sorry for the folks who buy RIBs second hand and aren't told about the nature of the repairs that have been done - and who did them - when they buy their boats. Sadly all too many of them have to spend money fixing another person's cruddy attempts at boat repair.