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Old 01 October 2013, 21:33   #41
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MAIB Accident Reporting

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Originally Posted by Poly View Post
I believe that in reality (even if not obligated to do so) ALL fatal marine accidents in UK waters are reported to and at least a preliminary investigation undertaken by the MAIB.
The U.S. Coast Guard was making similar statements here back in the 1990's. Then someone found they had forgotten to include fatalities within three miles of shore that were being recorded in another database. Those accidents added another 66 to 103 fatalities per year from 1993 to 1998.

Then USCG was saying similar things quite recently and we continue to find propeller fatalities that are not in their BARD database. Propellers have sometimes been said to only represent about 5 percent of all boating accidents. If we are regularly finding them, we suspect other types of fatalities could be regularly found as well, which means many fatalities are not being reported here. Please note - that is our view, and many disagree with our view.

At any rate, we can all have our own opinions and agree to disagree. As for me, I will stick with recommending the UK establish a boating accident database somewhat similar to USCG's BARD. AND that once established, they estimate under reporting using some of the techniques used by USCG. We posted our fairly lengthy public comment to USCG's recent request for public comment on their most recent under reporting study if anybody wants to get into the details.

With USCG's mandatory reporting of fatalities struggling to catch them all, we suspect some slip by the UK as well. We will try to chat with MAIB soon and see what we can learn about any accident databases pertaining to UK recreational boating they are aware of.

gary
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Old 01 October 2013, 21:57   #42
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Near Misses & Helicopter Rescues

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Health and safety record near misses and use a simple formula to stop accidents. So it probably works both ways?
On the 10th of August we did a helicopter rescue exercise with the Coastguard, watch the steps that are taken to land a paramedic on your rib and then air lift you to safety here....
We started promoting logging near misses a long time ago. As part of those efforts we still maintain a file of near miss boat propeller accidents reported in the media. Many of those are kill cord preventable near miss accidents (circling unmanned boats) to which someone arrived in time to save them.

We backed off encouraging the industry to collect near miss accidents because they are really struggling at even collecting accidents at the moment. We think they need to be focused there for a while longer. Or in the words of Paul Glatlzel, near misses would be a red herring at this point.

As to your comment about your helicopter rescue procedure, first thanks for your efforts to help rescue people. Second, it reminds me of a propeller accident long ago that may sound humorous until you remember this is an actual news report.

23 November 1959 Los Angeles Times (California) “Skin Diver, Hit by Boat, Falls From Copter, Dies” reports (name removed by us) of Canoga Park California was skin diving on Saturday 21 November 1959 off Santa Barbara Island. He was one of several diving from a barge in an island cove. He surfaced in front of an oncoming lobster boat and “was sucked into the propeller.” The lobster boat operator jumped in and pulled him onboard, radioed for help, and took him by boat to the barge. An Air Force helicopter made 30 attempts to secure a line to the injured man. Once they were successful, they raised him about 100 feet (30 meters) in the liter basket, the cable broke and the man was dropped onto the barge. When he hit the barge, he rolled off the side of the barge and into the water. People on the barge were able to pull him from the water. They took him by a fast power boat to Santa Catalina Island. From there the man was life flighted from to Newport Beach and pronounced dead on arrival at Hoag Memorial Hospital.

That story is probably another red herring here, but it is still interesting. Thank you for training to prevent these kinds of accidents from happening today.

gary
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Old 02 October 2013, 02:31   #43
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Health and safety record near misses and use a simple formula to stop accidents. So it probably works both ways?

I've seen simillar used in other industries too. Pretty sure the health service version is 1:3:9:27:81:243 (Death:Permenant Harm:Semi-Permentant Harm:Minor Harm:No Harm:Near Miss)

In Prop Strike Terms this would be something like: Death(1):Amputation/Disability(3):Major Wounds(9):Minor Cuts & Bruisies(27)

I think you'd get into a heated argument between a No Harm and a Near Miss (maybe thats why Whisper's version is less specific!). No Harm would mean you went in the drink but had no injuries. You could argue that is the KC doing its job. Or you could argue the RNLI coming and saving you but not needing treated is a No Harm, or you might say it was a near miss? You could say every time someone goes out without the KC attached thats a near miss.

What I'm getting at is I think someone needs to demonstrate if that model holds true (either variant). If it does then if you have 3 fatalities per yera then if you can reduce the near misses by 2 3rds the upward chain corrects its self and you get down to 1 per year.

The reason I have my doubts it holds true is that I doubt there are 10 minor injuries for every 1 serious injury / fatalaty in this setting. Cant be many people who get a minor scratch from their prop...
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Old 02 October 2013, 02:44   #44
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As to getting education to work, the U.S. Coast Guard has spent tens of millions of dollars trying to promote the wearing of life jackets / PFDs, but adult open motorboat wear rates still hover at about 5 percent.
I couldn't put a figure on it in the UK but its a lot more than that.
I think as boats get bigger and freeboard higher the use does drop off. Not sure if that reflects differences in boating style in the UK and US. But as I observed a few months back on a gallery of San Diego Rib pics the use of LJs did seem very low.

Don't know what the USCG has spent its money on but I think the RNLI 'useless unless worn' has probably been more effective and I wouldn't think was $10M+ but could be wrong... (although we have less people to target).
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Old 02 October 2013, 03:47   #45
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I would like to think that I am sensible when out on the water. I always put the kill cord on before going anywhere however here lies a problem as mentioned on the program last night.
I fish using a hand line from the A frame/Transom. I only have a 4.8m rib with a bench set up and a 1m space behind the seat to do the fishing but the kill cord will not stretch that far. That would be fine whilst drifting but when I need to reposition all I need to do is start the engine from where I am and move back to where I want to go. It's whilst doing this that the kill cord is not attached because it will not reach. I wonder how many incidents happen due to the kill cord being taken off due to these types of circumstances?
I like the thought of the range sensor to cut the engine this must be a more practical way to go whilst on the water.
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Old 02 October 2013, 04:37   #46
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Gary, I've followed both this thread & the "Compulsory Kill Cord" thread with interest & am still mystified as to what you are advocating. Maybe I'm just a thick Yorkshireman, but could you in simple terms, explain your agenda please. Just what is it you are promoting? is it:-

Compulsory use of kill cords?
The establishment of a UK accident reporting database?
The use of Prop Guards?

Or something else? The more of your posts I read, the muddier the issue becomes, to me anyway.

TIA for your clarification
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Old 02 October 2013, 05:23   #47
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Originally Posted by Pikey Dave View Post
Gary, I've followed both this thread & the "Compulsory Kill Cord" thread with interest & am still mystified as to what you are advocating ... could you in simple terms, explain your agenda please. Just what is it you are promoting? is it:-
Compulsory use of kill cords?
The establishment of a UK accident reporting database?
The use of Prop Guards?
Or something else?
Our mission statement might help clear up your confusion.
Our Mission :: Propeller Guard Information Center

Most of my comments on RIB.net have to do with the first two bullet points.

Make boating safer by:
  • Increasing awareness of propeller injuries and their severity
  • Increasing awareness of existing propeller injury avoidance devices

As Heddon Johnson mentioned when he was on BBC, he sees the use of kill cords being mandatory at some future time, maybe even after he is gone.

I see a future with fewer severe recreational boat propeller accidents, hopefully before I am gone.

Just as Heddon is trying move things along a little faster toward his vision of compulsary wear, I am somewhat of a facilitator trying to trying to move things along toward my vision a little faster than they would otherwise move.

We have stayed neutral on the topic of compulsary wear of kill cords, but do encourage wearing them whenever possible.

I do encourage the establishment of recreational boating accident databases around the world and efforts to reduce under reporting.

Prop guards and kill cords are just two of the MANY tools that can be used to prevent or mitigate propeller injuries in certain situations. Besides physical devices, those tools also include boating safety education, Public Service Announcements, situational awareness, and behavioral changes.

News coverage of local and high profile accidents is yet one more tool. For example, awareness of the Milligan accident is a major force behind the current kill cord discussion in the UK which is raising awareness of propeller injuries, of the risk of propeller injuries, and of ways such accidents might be prevented in the future.

I hope that clears things up for you.

gary
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Old 02 October 2013, 05:45   #48
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Ah, right. So you have a vested interest in promoting the use of prop guards?
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Old 02 October 2013, 06:39   #49
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They showed the RNLI crew without one - am sure read on here before that the throttles are spring loaded - or am i just imaging it? If it is, whats the views on that? Not done enough RIBing to figure out if that has gotchas or not?
You are correct the little arancia irb sibs the beach lifeguards use have no kill cord . There is a return spring fitted to the throttle and an on off switch where the old kill cord switch was . Unless they have just changed the set up that's what all the lifeguard and Sls clubs are using inc the irb racing teams recently featured on the tv .
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Old 02 October 2013, 07:12   #50
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I found the program interesting from a number of angles. Unfortunately it seemed geared toward one issue of wearing killcords rather than the general issue of improving safety at sea especially concerning leisure users. I thought Paul G from powerboat training UK handled the media very well despite the media seeming to steer him one way on the issues.

To me as others have pointed out as well there are numerous areas of boat safety that needs to be improved, we all see dangerous sitautions developing every time we go out and does not involve kill cords, people speeding to excess, people unable to naigate through channels on the correct side, kids sitting with legs over the bow and of course not forgetting the issue of wearing lifejackets.

I expect if a decent really hard look at incidents over a decent period of time were done it would probably show more injuries or death occurring due to people not wearing a life jacket than the issue of kill cords.

Dont get me wrong the kill cord issue is still an important one but just one of many.

I see some merit in increasing funding for more harbour patrols, more police on the water or volunteers to assist, I think legilstaion should play a part to enforce all new engines sold to have throttle controls which are sprung loaded and a 'in gear' button be fitted so that you have to press a button in to engagae a gear which would stop the accidently knocking of a throttle control when stationary and that the throttle controls having a spring should ensure in the event of a person not wearing a kill cord the throttle would close if they were ejected. My throttle control on my yamaha does have a certain resistance built in and it does at higher speed need me to keep pressure on the controls to keep the revs contant.

Other things just more awareness and encourage appropriate training. Perhaps insurance companies should encourage much lower premiums if you have some say PB2 as a basic cert. That might encourage more people to get trained.

I woudl also like to see more publication in the media of boating accidents and the causes, that might help.

And perhaps all boating magazines should be heavily encouraged to stop including pictures of leisure boats or adverts which show people not wearing a lifejacket or a kill cord. Thinking particulay of last edition of powerboat and rib mag with a picture of ben ainsly at the controls of a powerfull scorpion rib without a life jacket on, the PBR mag picked up that point in the caption but still published the pic ! why didnt they just say "Ben on grounds of helping the safety issues of boating along please wear a lifejacket".

Anyway enouth rambling.
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