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Old 17 October 2012, 09:17   #41
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resin an matt are commodity products. Yes they will get cheaper if you buy more, but not significantly so if you buy double the quantity. On my hypothetical numbers above probably 5% of the build cost is resin/matt. If you can save 10% on buying material in bigger quantity that means the whole boat could be 0.5% cheaper...
A saving of 0.5% on a £50k build cost is still a £250 saving. Multiply that by 12 boats and that's an extra £3k profit.

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but buyers don't like to be forced to buy the engine dealer you partner with and even if they do if you think 5-10 extra engines a year for a main outboard dealer will get you a very different deal you are in cloud cookoo land. The only way they'd give you any meaningful extra discount is if at the start of the year you could guarantee to take certain models - which of course you can't because until you get the sales and agree the exact specs with the customer you don't know...
Well Ribeye must think it's worthwhile. "Powered by Yamaha"

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His prices can only 'appear' cheap if he is getting deals other people don't. Just reducing the prices for everyone doesn't help individual dealers - the majority of people who have 40k rather than 50 to spend on a boat are still going to buy a boat anyway just a bit smaller. So in fact it doesn't even grow the total market.
Yes, but those that have £15k to spend rather than £18k may go and buy a Chinese RIB.

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even worse, he'd be reduced his prices in the hope of attracting new customers and if that doesn't happen he gains none of the 'savings' and probably goes the way of many a british rib builder who tried to sell to cheap...
And if all the British RIB builders sit back admiring the quality of their work and doing nothing about their costs then they'll go the same way as the British car industry went in the 70's and 80's.
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Old 17 October 2012, 09:29   #42
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Jim has given a lot of valid points and add to that i was once told by a very well known rib manufacturer that his hulls were nearly twice the lay up of his hard boats .As a tube manufacturer i do not charge for templating new designs but hope to recover this from repeat orders and as a very small company we have to hold £150,000 of fabric stock as well as other components ,rubbing strakes are only available in large quantities 200 to 600mtrs if we want reasonable prices .lastly i would really love to see some of these huge profits that people seem to think we make
Hi Paul, as I've said elsewhere, I have no probelem with a business making a healthy profit (profit is not a dirty word).

Out of interest, how much of that fabric stock is tied up in less popular colours, and do you charge more for tubes in a less popular colour than you do for the more popular colours?
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Old 17 October 2012, 10:08   #43
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We have just completed new open 6.8 rib we call the Shearwater Cutter which we will announce next month. .
Want one already !!!!

NSS- Jim uses RING hulls...I was lucky enough to own one and hope to again at some point in the next few years !
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Old 17 October 2012, 10:35   #44
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NSS- Jim uses RING hulls...I was lucky enough to own one and hope to again at some point in the next few years !
Okay, I had assumed from Jim's post that he had developed his own hull for the Shearwater. Presumably the £100k development was for the deck/console/cuddy moulds then, in which case I can understand he may prefer not to 'share' this element with another builder.
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Old 17 October 2012, 10:54   #45
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Okay, I had assumed from Jim's post that he had developed his own hull for the Shearwater. Presumably the £100k development was for the deck/console/cuddy moulds then, in which case I can understand he may prefer not to 'share' this element with another builder.
I'm guessing he may have done for the new smaller one and the other new ish 10m boat.....I think there has already been some 'sharing' of the cabin...google the ribcraft (offshore ?) cabin rib.....pretty/very similar .
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Old 17 October 2012, 11:11   #46
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I'm guessing he may have done for the new smaller one and the other new ish 10m boat.....I think there has already been some 'sharing' of the cabin...google the ribcraft (offshore ?) cabin rib.....pretty/very similar .
Fair enough, and as promised I'll get back in my box now, but I'd still contend that some of the attitudes and comments posted on this subject are carbon copies of what people said in many other industries, only to see manufacturers in the far east or nearer put them out of business (on price and quality!).
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Old 17 October 2012, 11:41   #47
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Fair enough, and as promised I'll get back in my box now, but I'd still contend that some of the attitudes and comments posted on this subject are carbon copies of what people said in many other industries, only to see manufacturers in the far east or nearer put them out of business (on price and quality!).
I 100% agree . there was a film of the zodiac production line I saw at some point - that shows it has for them become a real production line ...but they are still expensive !

Boats like yours (with a set layout and deck molding) will become far more common, but I think this will be imited to the smaller sizes - as when stuff gets bigger its all about being able to bespoke it. Even Avon with thier buy in to outhill consoles still give that ability to spec everything to suit ...and they are still expensive !
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Old 17 October 2012, 11:50   #48
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I 100% agree . there was a film of the zodiac production line I saw at some point - that shows it has for them become a real production line ...but they are still expensive !

Boats like yours (with a set layout and deck molding) will become far more common, but I think this will be imited to the smaller sizes - as when stuff gets bigger its all about being able to bespoke it. Even Avon with thier buy in to outhill consoles still give that ability to spec everything to suit ...and they are still expensive !
In leisure market terms, Avon effectively don't exist any more, with the exception of the Seasport Jet boats.

As for Outhill mouldings, I imported a console from Canada for my previous rib. It was (in my opinion) better looking, better quality and better functionally, and yet it still cost me less than the Outhill equivalent.
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Old 17 October 2012, 13:14   #49
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NSS we only stock the most popular colours mainly in 1200gsm orca 828 and a few in 1500gsm orca 866 .we do not stock any of the lighter grades 215 and 820 .If we stocked all colours in all grades we would have approx £1,000,000 worth of stock . we charge the same for all colours but extra for the heavier weight fabric .
the argument for sharing hull designs doesnt really stack up as it is the hull that gives the boat its own particular performance .the motor trade does not do this ,they share floorpans within the same group ie vw audi porsche not different companies .if you had a hull that gave better performance would you share it with your competitor .
Due to the very small quantities or boats being built and materials being used you would need every manufacturer in the uk to join together to get any savings on purchases of materials ,engines ect .e.g if my rubbing strake supplier has 100mtrs of strake in stock which is very unlikely as it is made to order it will cost x/mtr if he has no stock i have to order 600mtrs minimum and it still costs x/mtr enough for 50x 5mtr ribs ,we have 7 different rubbing strakes this would be enough for 350 boats who makes that many boats in a year ??
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Old 17 October 2012, 13:17   #50
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"the motor trade does not do this ,they share floorpans within the same group ie vw audi porsche not different companies"

I agree with your point Paul but Renault, Nissan & Opel are not the same group are they?
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Old 17 October 2012, 15:40   #51
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NSS we only stock the most popular colours mainly in 1200gsm orca 828 and a few in 1500gsm orca 866 .we do not stock any of the lighter grades 215 and 820 .If we stocked all colours in all grades we would have approx £1,000,000 worth of stock . we charge the same for all colours but extra for the heavier weight fabric .
the argument for sharing hull designs doesnt really stack up as it is the hull that gives the boat its own particular performance .the motor trade does not do this ,they share floorpans within the same group ie vw audi porsche not different companies .if you had a hull that gave better performance would you share it with your competitor .
Due to the very small quantities or boats being built and materials being used you would need every manufacturer in the uk to join together to get any savings on purchases of materials ,engines ect .e.g if my rubbing strake supplier has 100mtrs of strake in stock which is very unlikely as it is made to order it will cost x/mtr if he has no stock i have to order 600mtrs minimum and it still costs x/mtr enough for 50x 5mtr ribs ,we have 7 different rubbing strakes this would be enough for 350 boats who makes that many boats in a year ??
Hi Paul, that sounds like a very sensible stock holding policy, I was just curious about the cost implications for a customer specifying some obscure colour scheme for their tubes.

As for the motor manufacturer shared platform comparison, I understand your point, but I don't entirely agree. And it's not just, as Courageous has mentioned, that competing manufacturers share floorpans, engines and a wide variety of other components. Take a Ford Focus as an example. It's available as a basic 1.0 litre 3-door model with little in the way of equipment, as a luxuriously equipped estate car with a 2.0 turbo diesel, and as a fire-breathing 250bhp street racer. I'd contend that the target markets are totally different, but the basic platform is the same for each. All I'm suggesting is RIB builders could collaborate on a common 'platform' but tailor it to suit different markets and budgets.
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Old 17 October 2012, 15:50   #52
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So, are you saying that Toyota Aygo, Peugot 107 and Citroen C1 are all part of the same group?
They share the same floorpan and shell, engines and gearboxes and running gear. The only differences are cosmetic. They are all based on Toyota's Aygo. I would imagine they are built at one plant and shipped uot to their respective badges from there. We have an Aygo and a 107 as run arounds, the 3 cylinder engine on a manual box is surprisingly nippy.
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Old 17 October 2012, 16:07   #53
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So, are you saying that Toyota Aygo, Peugot 107 and Citroen C1 are all part of the same group?
They share the same floorpan and shell, engines and gearboxes and running gear. The only differences are cosmetic. They are all based on Toyota's Aygo. I would imagine they are built at one plant and shipped uot to their respective badges from there. We have an Aygo and a 107 as run arounds, the 3 cylinder engine on a manual box is surprisingly nippy.
Not sure if that was a question to me but, if so, no I'm not, though nor am I suggesting that as an example of what RIB builders should do as those three models are all pitched at the pretty much the same market and very similar price points.
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Old 17 October 2012, 17:08   #54
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I`ll keep out of the car who makes what discussion as i dont have much interest or knowledge of vehicles with too many wheels .but would suggest that sharing a hull is far different to sharing a floorpan ,a hull shape has far more to do with its performance/handling that a floorpan in as much as the floorpan can have far different types of running gear to give it different handling ,obviously both can have bigger or smaller engines to vary the performance .but the main component of the boat is the hull and its main handling characteristics
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Old 17 October 2012, 17:10   #55
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the argument for sharing hull designs doesnt really stack up as it is the hull that gives the boat its own particular performance .
I understood it as meaning using the same hull but moving the transom forward so for one mould you could have say three different hull lengths.
I'm not sure how many manufacturers do it but I know Humber do.
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Old 17 October 2012, 18:34   #56
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Interesting and very valid points, sharing bases, engines and being a bit more modular ( Humber).
If there were two IDENTICAL boats. Let's just say 5m Zodiac/100hp Mariner or an Avon 5m with a 100 Yam.
These would attract very different customers. I would prefer a Zodiac and also a Mariner.
Same stuff as Audi VW SEAT and Skoda now.
It's down to branding and I understand a Zodiac may command a premium.
Say for example ( back to the car world ), a VW Phaeton is a Bentley in drag. Even has the same engine. Bentley owners don't buy into the VW badge.
What this means is that perception of value and prestige has more bearing on purchase than you can fathom. This is branding.
What I'm saying is that the same hulls could sell for wildly different prices esp when packaged with identical engines bearing different logos. Economies of scale and power of bulk purchase.
It's a shot across the bows for home manufacturing...............
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Old 17 October 2012, 19:05   #57
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Big fat profit margins, that's why!

See msg subject!
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Old 17 October 2012, 19:19   #58
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Ok then, they're not. Get a Chinese manufactured brand new RIB or a ten year old european one and it will be cheap. Simple answer.
A Zodiac is more expensive than the equivalent (sic) X-PRO chinese import and also a Honwave is extremely good value.
Pays yer money takes yer choice.

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Old 17 October 2012, 20:15   #59
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Wow! Didn't expect as much debate as this (well, did really).

So, I've learned: -

Hard boats are cheap because they are mass produced and don't hold their vale. Except those imported cheaply when the $ value was poor against the £ who do hold their vale because they were cheap to start with.

Ribs are expensive because they are bespoke built in the UK, but the current market means they are cheap because people will do anything to get rid of them.

New ribs are expensive because they are fashion items and people will pay a lot of money to out-do their peers. But they are cheap because they will last a long time and out-perform hard boats that are made (in the states) of marzipan!

Rib manufacturers are making a fortune because they are selling bespoke models to feckless idiots who will buy anything that's got a 14" touch screen GPS (and stripey seats). But they also go out of business because the development costs can never be recouped from a niche (bespoke) product and they don't share the costs amongst other manufacturers.

The Chinese are bastards!

Have I got that right?
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Old 17 October 2012, 20:29   #60
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a VW Phaeton is a Bentley in drag. Even has the same engine.
Just a teensy weensy bit of an over simplification
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