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Old 26 February 2005, 07:07   #1
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Misled by the RYA re ICC?

INTERNATIONAL CERTIFICATE OF COMPETENCE (ICC)

I have done my dayskipper practical, qualified, applied for and received my ICC. My intention was to use this certification to charter boats abroad BUT, it is NOT worth the paper it is written on, this is CONFIRMED by the RYA. EU countires are obliged to accept a certificate issued by other EU states, BUT it is a key condition that the certificate are issued for visitor status in another country BUT the visitor MUST be under the flag of the issuing state e.g. it IS NOT permitted to be used for charter or using ANY OTHER vessel, so no borrowing or chartering RIBS abroad thinking you are covered.

In PLAIN ENGLISH the RYA confirm that the ICC they issue is only valid on a BRITISH flagged boat, something they claim to have only just realised, so what clowns are running that organisation? I have been totally misled into thinking I could charter a boat abroad, conned into doing a course to be certified and NOW find out it is totally USELESS (if not in a british flagged boat).

The RYA state now that if you operate a 'foreign registered' vessel, you accept the full rules, and need to 'HOLD QUALIFICATIONS' from the country of registration. I wonder if we will now be offered French/Dutch/Spanish e.t.c. dayskipper courses

SO BE WARNED, it is no good if you have an accident at sea in a chartered or borrowed boat abroad, YOU WILL be held accountable and may be eating a lot of porridge

Perhaps they should refund all the costs of courses they have 'conned' people into doing in belief they would be qualified to charter abroad!

Oh! and sack the pratt that is in charge of that department
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Old 26 February 2005, 07:10   #2
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The RYA only run the courses on behalf of the MCA. It is them you should be mad at.
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Old 26 February 2005, 07:25   #3
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My certificate is issued by the RYA, I was told I could charter a boat abroad with it, the buck stops with them as far as I am concerned. The RYA should ensure that they are giving correct advice, no good nicking my money off me and then passing the buck, they sold me the course it is down to them

A blatant breach of selling something 'not fit' for the purpose, and that is just for starters
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Old 26 February 2005, 07:35   #4
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sailing.ie, giving wrong advice?

http://www.sailing.ie/dynamic/pdf/IC...Qs(july04).pdf

I hope that the RYA are going to write to all the people that they have issued the ICC to in the last 5 years to warn them that unless they are using it on a British registered vessel, then it is a useless piece of paper, and that all holders are required to undergo training in the country they wish to charter or use a non UK registered boat in.

This is very important as all ICC holders must be made aware of their responsibilities, no good waiting for an incident to happen.

So really, what we are saying is that an ICC IS ONLY for use on British registered vessels, NOT charter (unless you have of course done training in that countries marine law). USELESS otherwise!!

How many useless pieces of paper are lying around in Britain then, and how many joined the RYA just to get them loads I would reckon!
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Old 26 February 2005, 08:01   #5
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It looks as though received your copy of the RYA newsletter too.

Pete, you may well be able to charter a boat abroad using your ICC as evidence of competence. Many charterers will be happy to accept the ICC. Some may insist on a wee familiarity session (which they are using to assess your skills) before letting you loose.

This is bang on coincidence because last evening I was with a pal who has just bought a sports boat in spain and it is going to be chartered by a company out there on his behalf. He recently did his RYA qualification with the same company and they accept the ICC as proof of competence when folk charter from them. Apparently, so do most of the companies in that area.

Worth enquiring before getting too wound up about it.
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Old 26 February 2005, 08:08   #6
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I agree, no problem with getting the Charter, BUT you must be trained in the law of that land, no good trying to hide behind an ICC it's not worth anything, if you have an accident and not trained in their law, then only porridge coming your way

So, ICC totally USELESS if not in a British registered vessel.
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Old 26 February 2005, 15:33   #7
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JW, I would think that RYA certifications (or previous experience, however produced) should be able to prove your level of competence to a Charter company, my gripe is that they tell you that you require an ICC when you clearly don't, just another way to extort money out if us and create a bigger paper chase and jobs for the boys.

I want an explanation as to why we have all been misled, and conned into getting photo's for it and told if we join the RYA you get one free. Now these ICC's are useless pieces of paper for those that don't use a British registered boat abroad, perhaps we will see the RYA memberships fall, it seems they have been falsley bumped up by people getting their ICC.

They now need to apologise for misleading us, make it clear in their literature that an ICC is ONLY for British registered vessels used abroad, that it DOES NOT cover foreign vessels chartered, and sack the joker who has responsibility for conning us all. They should start to warn people of what laws they are required to learn, and what qualifications they require for each country.

I hope that helps
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Old 27 February 2005, 04:59   #8
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Pete , I think your mixing up the issues here;I hired a Bayliner on Lake Garda last year -it was a boat that "required a licence" Most of the other hirers were German -they also have their own certification.

The ICC was accepted as proof of competency and it was clear that without it those boats would not have been available.The insurance was of course the hiring company's not mine.

Of course you are right that the ICC in itself does not entitle you to be "qualified" in another jurisdiction but as you can see above it will help you as evidence of ability

It is certainly not useless
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Old 27 February 2005, 16:00   #9
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I agree that the ICC is not a useless piece of paper, but it does need to be clarified by RYA Training centres when clients wish to obtain the ICC that it is aimed at skippers of British Registered Vessels.
Do Med charter companies like Mark Warner, Sun Sail, Neilson etc use British Registered Yachts?
The majority of my clients who want their ICC it is because they have purchased a boat for use in Spain but it is purchased in the UK!
If you want to be able to charter a vessel I believe that the RYA practical qualifications are still the desired "pieces of paper" to hold in addition to the ICC. Doing local qualifications in which ever country could prove impossible due to language barriers.
In Spain I have been asked for my ICC even though I had my MCA/RYA Yachtmaster Certificate with me!!
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Old 27 February 2005, 16:09   #10
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guess it would be a definite for a trip to France by RIB


Us
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Old 27 February 2005, 16:47   #11
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Originally Posted by The Jackeens
guess it would be a definite for a trip to France by RIB
You gonna do it? Cool.
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Old 27 February 2005, 17:23   #12
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Don't get me wrong about some kind of International certificate being a good thing, what I don't like is the fact that I have been 'sold' a 'thing' that is purported to show that you are certified to a specific level and I am now being told that this 'thing' is now only vaild on a British registered boat. I trained for and bought this 'thing' on the understanding that it was an International Certificate of Competence that could be used to charter vessels abroad, now I find out that this was a lie, and that it is legally worthless for that purpose, although I do agree that it is better than nothing, but there again my dayskipper certificate can prove that, I don't need to pay extra for a 'thing' that is bol.ox I have been truly misled that I required this 'thing' to charter a boat abroad, that is a LIE (because it doesn't) and I have been DECIEVED

Now best they all get it sorted and agree that this 'thing' can now be called a true ICC with a proper purpose, but I guess that will take years of foreign travel and expenses, meetings in posh hotels and the like, well they can shove the incompetent RYA up their ar.e, they are getting no more money from me
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Old 27 February 2005, 17:25   #13
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You gonna do it? Cool.
yep - St Malo, Rennes, Nantes.
fancy a trip jw ??
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Old 27 February 2005, 17:44   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by peteb
but I guess that will take years of foreign travel and expenses, meetings in posh hotels and the like,
Actually the IMO, who set UN regulation 40 is based in the UK..
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Old 27 February 2005, 18:26   #15
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Oh yeh! Well here is a little taste of the nonsense and confusion going on, but I guess it can all be cleared up with conference calls and e-mails, eh :-

http://www.unece.org/trans/doc/2004/...3-2004-16e.pdf

http://www.unece.org/trans/doc/2002/...2002-05a1e.doc


From my understand (please correct me if I am wrong). for example, if chartering a vessel in France, and you are the operator of a sports craft, designed and equipped for a sporting activity, and in particular for sailing at speeds greater than 20km/h, or of pleasure barges more than 15mtrs long, you must be in possession either of either of the appropriate French documentation or of a document recognised under a reciprical agreement between France and the the operators country of origin. These provisions are applicable immediately, so if as the RYA state, the ICC is not recognised whilst you are in charge of a foreign vessel (non British registered being used abroad), best you get the French exam done (P9. para 24 refers on first doc). The resolution has been incorporated into national law in France.
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Old 28 February 2005, 01:37   #16
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R U flanker?
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Old 28 February 2005, 02:58   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Hickman
Do Med charter companies like Mark Warner, Sun Sail, Neilson etc use British Registered Yachts?
Sunsail and Neilson run Greek registered boats in Greece so I assume they are all under local registry around the world.

Over the last 3 years with Neilson I have never been asked for any papers or documentation
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Old 28 February 2005, 03:07   #18
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I don't deny that you have not, but if you read what the RYA say i.e. that your ICC is only valid when on a British registered vessel abroad, and then read the UN resolution 40, it seems that you are no longer certified as competent when in charge of a foreign vessel, unless you are certified according to their law, i.e. having completed their appropriate exams.

So confusing as anything really, but best to know what is what before a mojor accident / incident abroad, don't you think.

If anyone on here can unravel this, then I certainly would appreciate it.
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Old 28 February 2005, 03:12   #19
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Quote from the application for a ICC


1 ELIGIBILITY
This certificate is only available to British citizens and bona fide British residents over the age of 16.Evidence of residency for non-citizens will be required in the form of a photocopy of a driving licence , utility bill, Council Tax bill or bank statement ect. Further authenticated evidence residency for non-citizens may be required.
The ICC is acceptable for British citizens or residents using a British flagged vessel for leisure .Other countries may accept the ICC for their native flagged vessels

2 EVIDENCE OF COMPETENCY Evidence may be provided in one of the following ways
a. By producing an RYA certificate of satisfactory completion of a relevant PRACTICAL course , an RYA/MCA Certificate of Competence or a Statutory Certificate of Competence issued by the MCA , or a services Bridge Watch Keeping Certificate . See list on page 4 . Section 11a below must be completed
b: By passing a test of competence at an RYA recognised training centre or an RYA affiliated club authorised to carry out tests .For power endorsed ICC'S, this test must be carried out on a vessel appropriate to the type of ICC required , ie above or below 10 metres.


You should read the instructions in part 1 Peteb , and i would advise before undertaking a charter in a foreign country , you check with the charter company what is required from you to hire a craft . So not a useless piece of paper just some confusion by expats on foreign registered vessels trying to get round the licencing laws . If you are an expat on a British registered vessel you won't have a problem.
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Old 28 February 2005, 03:19   #20
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Thanks Tim, what you say there seems to make sense, but I guess if you are in a country that 'requires licencing', then the RYA are saying that if you are in charge of a foreign vessel in one of these countries, then you are not covered by the ICC. And if you are not covered by the ICC, then you have to have completed the countries appropriate training, well clear as mud to me that bit

I just think that the RYA should have written to ALL holders of the ICC explaining what is what, can you imagine going on an annual holiday to charter and being turned away when you arrive because of this!

Thanks for the help
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