Fastrack One day Level 2 - Page 2

codprawn · 16 March 2005, 14:32

To be honest is a course lasting a few days REALLY sufficient? It comes to something when someone with say 20yrs of experience is not considered as "safe" as someone who has just passed a few days of training!!!

Paul Glatzel · 16 March 2005, 14:42

Quote:

So having to do an exam for the commercial endorsement is just another way for the rya to grab more money from people. typical.

Nope, don't actually believe this was the objective keytouch. The reason for the change was to ensure that anyone achieving a commercial endorsement at a level where they can take 12 passengers up to 20 miles offshore is up to the job, doing that via the advanced course was not ideal hence bring it into line with Yachtmaster/Coastal Skipper - which is by examination.

As to your comment re the RYA making extra money. The cost is £130 (or so) for a 5-6 hour session of which the Powerboat Examiner gets about £75. Don't really think a company Learjet will be on the cards yet for RYA Training!

Hope this makes it a little clearer keytouch

Paul

Cookee · 16 March 2005, 14:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul Glatzel

Cookee - Commercially Endorsed Level 2 is acceptable for Skippers under Local Authority Coding in the Solent (& probably other places), & Cat 6 (& possibly Cat 5, can't remember but there's a thread under the commercial section on it) MCA coding

Nope! Not in addition. You can do Advanced Exam without doing the advanced however having it reduces the entry requirements see here -

http://www.powerboat-training-uk.co....ndorsement.htm

Direct assessment. Typically these take 3 hours but this allows for a bit of training to 'refine' the odd area if it is a bit rusty. Could undertake longer direct assessments if relevant but realistically if someone requires more time they should do the entire course as they would benefit from it.

1 to 1 Level 2 in 1 day is not acceptable and the RYA (Jon Mendez) are keen to hear of anyone offering this.

Paul

Thanks for that Paul, but to quote your own website -

"We are not 100% clear on this"

and you are meant to know!

To be fair I've looked at the RYA website and it isn't exactly helpfull - referring pages arn't complete etc ..............

Jelly · 16 March 2005, 15:01

Codprawn
Look at it as a standard, nought more, its like lots of things, it says that the holder on that day reached that standard. It doesn't mean that some one with 50+ years experiance is not as good as newly passed L2.
But for things like lawyers & insurance they like a standard, it says you have reached a certain level of knowledge and competancy.
I personally look at L2 the same as my driving instructor said to me once I passed my test - "you are now safe enough to go and learn by yourself"

Rgds
James

Simon Hawkins · 16 March 2005, 15:02

I am sure Paul will clarify this point but doesnt it say further in the paragraph contact us for an update. The post was of the 1st Jan.

Dave B · 16 March 2005, 15:23

Has anybody seen a heavy goods vehicle with double L plates, this means that the driver has not even passed his car licence but can take his test in a truck and if competent will be awarded both licences. A 38 Ton artic is more deadly than a rib but the truck driver can drive this rig with out any experience, he must have an instructor with him (or her) who has passed a very stringent examination not just a 3 day RYA instructors course

So why should a candidate not be able to take a test for his level two powerboat and if competent be awarded his certificate. To make someone take a full course just to obtain a certificate is no more than profiteering. If he is good enough then he is good enough without the course.

The one thing that makes me sick is the profiteering that goes on once you mention boats or ribs, all the parts and oils jump in price and all of a sudden we have experts in all fields, with a sharp intake of breath the marine engineer ( who would not be employed by a local garage because of his lack of experience) tells you that your motor needs ****** and that will cost £****** To the many good competent engineers out there I am sorry, but you will have put right many cock up jobs these experts have “sorted” and it is just the same in the training field. It is all money orientated, I know we all need to live but commonsense must at some time take part

Jono · 16 March 2005, 15:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave B

Has anybody seen a heavy goods vehicle with double L plates, this means that the driver has not even passed his car licence but can take his test in a truck ....

Is this new? or a "Manx" thing?.... Remind me to run away if I see a "double L plater"...

Quote from DVLA website...

"If you wish to apply for a provisional driving licence to drive vehicles over 3,500kgs, minibuses and buses you must hold a valid full driving licence"

Paul Glatzel · 16 March 2005, 15:54

Cookee

Your post/quote is a little mischevious!

Quote:

"We are not 100% clear on this"

The only part where it says the above is in the following paragrapgh

Quote:

How Do I Apply For a Commercial Endorsement?

Post 1st Jan 2005 examinations

We are not 100% clear on this as either the commercial endorsement will be issued upon completion of the examination with the Powerboat Examiner having viewed the other relevant qualifications , or perhaps will occur as below. Contact us for an update

This simply refers to the part about whether having passed the course the Examiner does everything there & then and signs off the form or it all goes back via the 'Office' (the 'RYA'). It would appear that the Examiner then views all the relevant documents at the end of the exam thus preventing the need to send them in. The commercial endorsemnet is then issued. I will update the website this weekend to correct this as i agree it's a bit out of date.

Has to be said that Advanced Exams are few & far between at present and i'm yet to do one but that i suspect is largely because anyone who wants a commercial endorsement was part of the rush for Advanced Certs in the latter stages of 2004

Paul

Cookee · 16 March 2005, 15:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave B

So why should a candidate not be able to take a test for his level two powerboat and if competent be awarded his certificate. To make someone take a full course just to obtain a certificate is no more than profiteering. If he is good enough then he is good enough without the course.

I thought that was what Paul was saying you could do - just take the exam (1/2 a day if I understand correctly) rather than the full 2 day course and exam.

I admit I am still unsure exactly what this other part is? Once you've got your advanced or level 2, do you have to take what is essentially the coastal / yachtmaster theory exam as well? If so I think it is only fair enough.

With the current trends in people resorting to the courts for compensation at the drop of a hat, if anything went wrong I would want to have proof that I had had proper training and my qualifications counted for something.

One other point worth considering, to get a commercial endorsment, you need a certain amount of experience anyway before you even start taking exams ..................

Cookee · 16 March 2005, 15:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul Glatzel

Cookee

Your post/quote is a little mischevious!

Paul

Sorry - I was just trying to point out that the whole situation is as clear as mud and the RYA arn't making it easier! Your site quotes the RYA site word for word and I still don't know what this other exam is!

Kernow Buoy · 16 March 2005, 16:37

Quote:

With the current trends in people resorting to the courts for compensation at the drop of a hat, if anything went wrong I would want to have proof that I had had proper training and my qualifications counted

Just a thought though Cookee, If we both made the same mistake and hurt a 3rd party, who would they clobber more, me being untrained, or you being the trained expert who should have known better?
Hey I'm not saying don't get trained, I'm doing a level 2 ASAP, but as I said, just a thought.
Regards
Kernow.

Cookee · 16 March 2005, 16:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kernow

Just a thought though Cookee, If we both made the same mistake and hurt a 3rd party, who would they clobber more, me being untrained, or you being the trained expert who should have known better?
Hey I'm not saying don't get trained, I'm doing a level 2 ASAP, but as I said, just a thought.
Regards
Kernow.

You!

If you're taking paying passengers out without a qualification, you should get "done" for that as well!

If you're not taking out paying passengers I think it would be on how stupid you were - on the basis we're talking apples for apples training and qualifications shouldn't make any differance - IMHO of course!

DGR · 16 March 2005, 17:04

Cookee/Kernow,

I guess that the difference would probably be that Cookee would be insured to take out passengers (qualification being required through MCA regulations etc), and would be subject to investigation through the 'usual' routes, whereas you would just get taken to the cleaners for doing something illegally!!

As has been said previously, it's about illustrating a standard, and complying with the current regulations - so there will always be a degree of 'box ticking'.

D...

Kernow Buoy · 16 March 2005, 17:09

Quote:

If you're taking paying passengers out without a qualification, you should get "done" for that as well!

Yep, for sure no problems with that.
I was thinking more along the lines of we both hit a waterskier in identical circumstances ( No, not the same waterskier!!) who if anyone is more liable the novice or the expert?
Kernow

Paul Glatzel · 16 March 2005, 21:57

Cookee - no probs!!

Am a bit unclear whether there is confusion re Level 2. So here are some facts to clear up what may be clear anyway!

Level 2 is a two day course.

Usually you are continually assessed to decide whether you reach the standard... but...

Schools have the option of inserting a 'test' at the end of the course to assess you. I don't know of any that do (or more to the point have time to)

You can take a test for Level 2 (called 'Direct Assessment' - as you can for the Advanced). It is up to schools to decide how long this takes but 2-3 hours is typical

Schools either award Inland or Coastally endorsed certificates.

Anyone (over the age of 12) can attend a Level 2 course (12-18 year olds have their certificates endorsed)

As to whoever it was said that the RYA is profiteering from Level 2 courses then frankly that is rather wide of the mark. We pay an annual fee to the RYA (about £160) and about £3 a certificate, thereafter ALL the cost of the Level 2 course reflects what the school feels it needs to charge. Typically this is £250-350. Equally the RYA doesn't force anyone to do a course. The MCA require people to be suitably qualified for certain tasks and it is the RYA that provides the training scheme to serve the needs of the MCA.

Somewhat ironically there is some truth in what Kernow says re qualifications and if two people have the same accident the more qualified one is likely to take a larger fall as they may be percieved to know what they should be doing moreso than a less experienced person. That said Kernow if you do decide to do some charter work without being qualified then do let us know as i'm sure one or two of us might like to tip off the gentlemen with the nice yellow Halmatic RIBs

Think that covers it!!

Paul

Dave B · 17 March 2005, 07:13

Sorry Jono

The double L plate thing is in UK law. The requirement for HGV L's is now a thing of the past.

And yes, I would run aswell.

Jono · 17 March 2005, 08:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave B

Sorry Jono

The double L plate thing is in UK law. The requirement for HGV L's is now a thing of the past.

And yes, I would run aswell.

Jeez... now THAT is scary.....

Kernow Buoy · 17 March 2005, 09:17

Quote:

That said Kernow if you do decide to do some charter work without being qualified then do let us know as i'm sure one or two of us might like to tip off the gentlemen with the nice yellow Halmatic RIBs

Hi paul,
No chance of any competition from me! I run a holiday park in Cornwall and get out on the water to get away from the tourists! The thought of filling the Rib with them is not a happy one!!

Speaking of tourists/summer I will be 'winterising' my Rib for June July & August when I just can't use it.
Now a no brainer, what agency uses the 'nice yellow Halmatic Ribs'?
Regards
Kernow

Jono · 18 March 2005, 12:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave B

Sorry Jono

The double L plate thing is in UK law. The requirement for HGV L's is now a thing of the past.

And yes, I would run aswell.

Dave,

It looks like you have been misinformed. As holder of an "Operators Licence" myself, I though I'd better check it out with the Licensing Authorities.. This is their response.

CUSTOMER REF : D362822

Thank you for your e-mail.

I am sorry but the information you have been told is incorrect.

All driving tests are subject to staging and a driver must be in possession
of full car entitlement before being able to undertake testing for larger
vehicles.

Regards

Mrs T. Matthews

freakwave · 22 March 2005, 08:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cookee

Not sure what you mean - how does a level 2 allow you to "take people on the water"

the level two does not allow you to take people on the water for that you will need to take your advanced powerboat certificate and then get yourself commercially endorsed, thats if your on about taking people on charter.