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Old 24 August 2002, 07:14   #41
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Mike

To quote you:

On my first long voyage in 1980, even if I could have afforded it, no one would underwrite me. I had no qualifications or experience to speak of. On my last in 1997 I was quoted £33,000 a year. I chose to take the risk and go without it. It was either that or forget the whole thing.

Perhaps if had some form of qualification then you may have been able to get reasonable insurance .......
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Old 24 August 2002, 09:27   #42
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Hi folks

Quote:
Perhaps if had some form of qualification then you may have been able to get reasonable insurance .......
I don't really think that Mike telling the insurers that he had a RYA level 2 qualification would have had much effect on the quoted premium.

I think we all agree that training is a good thing. Life jackets are a good thing etc. etc.

The problem we have here is an argument of PRINCIPLES.

We have the principle of enforcement by law.
We have the principle of freedom of the individual.

The fact is that argument rarely, if ever, changes people's principles. For example if your favourite colour is red and mine is green you could never convince me by logical argument that red is better than green.

I do not want more regulation and I do not think it will help. You (you know who you are) want more regulation and think it would help. We are as different as longitude and latitude (yet another nautical metaphor).

I hope that the day of the PANDABOAT PATROL and 'Heave to me hearties. Do you have a licence for that rowing boat?", never arrives in my lifetime!

Keith (freedom of the seas campaign organiser) Hart

PS Bill was a right B****R when he was a motorcycle instructor. Weren't you Bill?
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Old 24 August 2002, 15:53   #43
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Keith you know I was a pussycat!! The problem was some people were frightened of me. They thought I was a Barsteward! A gentle nice natured little fellow like me??
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Old 26 August 2002, 15:38   #44
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My pennies worth !!!

I am opposed to regulation / registration for boating, I guess because I personaly am sensible enough and have done about 11 years of blasting around the solent without major incident or being a risk to others.

However, having launched at Eling near Southampton this Sunday I was amazed by two things :

Two young ladies launched a jetski at the slip and proceeded to blast straight out of the sleepy harbour at breaknet speeds just wearing costumes. WHY ? I guess simple reason is they thought it had some pose value.

Second thing was some racy pointy hard thing that looked like a phantom scream up towards the bank on the plane and do a fast turn in and stop near the bank. Why ? guess he was posing. Wouldnt have felt so cool if his throttle stuck open and plowed up the bank through a pile of people.

Whilst principly against regulation is does seem strange why a 12 or even 5 year old with no experience, is allowed to jump on a 110 bhp 65 mph jetski and blast off into the distance ??

Guess regulation will be on its way for this reason alone.
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Old 26 August 2002, 16:44   #45
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Why? No idea when there is so much room out there!! See my previous reply regarding Jetskiers stupidity!!

Coincidently, 2 jet skiers collided off of St Lawrance bay yesterday (River Blackwater), 1 dead with a broken neck the other in hospital with shock!!
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Old 26 August 2002, 17:28   #46
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There is a lot of room out in the Atlantic, the Channel or the Firth of Hart , but there certainly isn't much in the Solent.

There is also a lot of people out there who like the loud pedal (especially me) and that is why the co regs need to be known and followed.

If you don't and are involved in a near miss then why shouldn't the innocent party take your SSR number and request that you be educated or reprimanded.

Whilst we are on the subject of training, why can't people go to night school to get a ticket, it's cheap and it's appropriate.

Insurance, I may be obtuse but wouldn't economies of scale apply if insurance was compulsory and many more policies were written


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Old 26 August 2002, 18:08   #47
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'life in Tehran under the Taleban :'

some info keith:

1. No powerboating in Tehran

2. No Taleban in Tehran

3. No Taleban rules on powerboating

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Old 27 August 2002, 05:26   #48
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Hi folks

Se what I mean. safety campaigners have called for a change in the law...............

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/2218095.stm

And what next will they be demanding we make a legal requirement?

Keith (freedom of the seas campaign) Hart
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Old 27 August 2002, 06:14   #49
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That is actually totally different. What they're campaigning for is for it to be illegal to HIRE boats out without PROVIDING life jackets. It's totally up to the users if they want to wear them or not. They aren't campaigning for any restrictions on personal boats.

If, however, for some reason it was made compulsory to wear lifejackets, how would they define lifejacket? Would it be any device worn by you that provides a certain amount of lift, or would it need to be a properly certified life jacket? I'm asking this because when I go out on a RIB, I'm wearing my diving drysuit and my Buddy Commando stab jacket partially inflated. Would that be seen as a lifejacket? Or would I need to spend more money to get me a lifejacket? Plus that means even more stuff being carried on the RIB when we're off on a dive. As then we would HAVE to wear lifejackets, as our BCDs are then on the bottle rack attached to the rest of our kit, even though we're wearing partially inflated drysuits, and no weightbelts.

I can agree with some points being made by Keith and the others, but other things I do think need to be changed. Training should be compulsory. Sure, some people will ignore that, but I think there's some other people that previously didn't bother because they "didnt have too", but will then decide it's not worth the risk, and get themselves trained up.

Matt
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Old 27 August 2002, 13:15   #50
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This weekends scores

So far this weekend we have had

A waterskier being towed by his wife and managing to pile into the back off the boat........I dead. It was his birthday present.


A jetskier rode into a windsurfer off Lee on Solent and broke the guys ankle. Ok that's not really serious, but the jetskier wasn't insured and the windsurfer won't be walking for a while.

Two jetski's collided 1 dead.

What's an acceptable level of death before it becomes distasteful

and some fool in a Camel boat (me) drifted across the path of the powerboat racing fleet in Cowes. Very fortunately the safety boat was on the case and got us out of the way in good time.

He didn't swear much when he was discussing the issue with us on dry land either. very embarrassing, especially given my strong views on safety subjects.
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Old 27 August 2002, 14:30   #51
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Quote:
some fool in a Camel boat (me) drifted across the path of the powerboat racing fleet in Cowes. Very fortunately the safety boat was on the case and got us out of the way in good time.
Which just goes to show...............

Quote:
That is actually totally different. What they're campaigning for is for it to be illegal to HIRE boats out without PROVIDING life jackets. It's totally up to the users if they want to wear them or not. They aren't campaigning for any restrictions on personal boats.
No that will come next though. My point was that whenever some one gets killed doing something, some one somewhere will want more laws and regulations.

Quote:
how would they define lifejacket
Good one that Matt. Karen (eldest daughter and marine biologist etc...) often wears her dry suit (diving) when out on the boat with me (it's a very wet boat). She would float with just the suit on, but she wears a life jacket as well, just to keep her dad happy!

Keith (found the quotes button at last) Hart
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Old 27 August 2002, 15:15   #52
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oh well if it does come more work for me teaching folk and training other instructors to teach folk. It has been noticeable recently we have had a number of people come along cos the insurance company have told them they have to do a course within a couple of months from taking out the insurance.
On jet skiers we have had two recently ram ski boats - on both occasions the ski boat was stationary. As one of them said "one minute there was two of us in the boat -the next minute there were three of us in it and the front end of a jet ski sticking thru the hull". Neither ski was insured!! Meeting soon with the council about it hopefully. But whatever they do there is still the problem of a sixty mph machine and a 30mph brain!!!
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Old 28 August 2002, 00:52   #53
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I think that the problem with jetskis is that they attract the spped freaks, who aren't actualy intrested in boating!

Keith (lets just legislate against jetskis) Hart
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Old 28 August 2002, 11:07   #54
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Careful Hart. Remember we don't want to "Ban" anything. Thin edge of the wedge and all that.......................
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Old 29 August 2002, 13:55   #55
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Well I have been watching this happy bantering for a while now!
Surprised and saddend by some of the comments I have read surely it"s not ok for someone to purchase a fast RIB. power boat,or jet ski ,take to the water with no form of training/ knowledge. Often putting themselves, passengers and other boat users at risk, all because they haven't a clue what they are doing.

Once the damage is done not to have insurance!! Well its a bit of a bind if you new Scorpion got a dent, whole different situation if you kill or maime someone, is it not?

See Wavehumpers report of incidents in the Solent last weekend, I can tell you the jet skier who hit sail board was not insured, but did manage to put some one in hospital with leg broken in six places.He was lucky I guess.

Also have we forgotten the poor bods (life boats and other rescue ),who feel compelled to jump in their boats any time night and day in all weather, to rescue surviors or pick up remains, messy busniss.

As to the point of wearing lifejackets ,well if you have no training no insurance Why bother!!!
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Old 29 August 2002, 14:58   #56
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Originally posted by Viking
the jet skier who hit sail board was not insured, but did manage to put some one in hospital with leg broken in six places
- What a compelling argument for compulsory third party insurance. If I was injured in such a manner by such a mindless yob, I'd be mighty racked off.
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Old 30 August 2002, 01:25   #57
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Some one mentioned earlier that several of those who were against compulsory registration etc. are or were involved in someway in law enforcement. Perhaps that is because they (me amongst them) can see the problems with enforcement.

Let me tell you about a couple of things that have had a strange effect on the activity of those less honest than the rest of us.

1. Not a law but a change in 'manufacture'. A few years ago due to the rise in vehicle theft, car manufacturers were encouraged by the government to upgrade the security of their vehicles. The government reasoned that if cars were harder to break into then the theft of motor vehicles would come down. This would be a good statistic for them.

What happened? Cars were fitted as standard with alarms, deadlocks and immobilisers.

What happened? Car thefts did go down. Great. Well actually no. Why? Robbery, burglary and so called 'car jacking' incidents rose. These are much more serious crimes and involve violence to the victims.

Why did this happen? Simple. It was difficult to steal cars so the offenders needed the keys. To get the car instead of waiting for someone to park it, let them go off and then steal the car, they waited untill it was parked and then attacked the driver as they were getting out of it. Drivers were attacked as they waited at traffic lights. Houses where there were nice cars parked outside were burgled and the car keys and car taken.

The law did not modify the dishonest behaviour of the offender it merely caused them to adjust their modus operandi with a worse effect than before.

2. To make it more difficult to 'ring' cars with false plates the production of replacement number plates had been legislated. Only licenced people can produce them and you have to show the log book for the vehicle.

Has this reduced vehicles on false plates? No. Why? Well, now the theft of numberplates from parked vehicles has rocketed. If the thief want a 'W' plate he simply steals one from a parked car. The law did not modify the dishonest behaviour of the offender it merely caused them to adjust their modus operandi with a worse effect than before.

Now, the point I am making, is that a pillock on a jetski now, will still be a pillock on a jetski if you bring in legislation to register his vessel.

However all this is really irellevant. As I said before training is GOOD, lifejackets are GOOD, registering boats may even be GOOD, the point is that interference by the government is BAD.

Keith (well I'm enjoying the debate anyway) Hart

PS WE ALL LOVE RIBS, SIBS and BOATING
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Old 30 August 2002, 09:44   #58
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Nah, we all love RIBs and boating, your little boat should be kept on calm rivers where it belongs I don't take my mountain bike on motorways, and I'm sure it goes faster than your little thing.

I see your point, maybe government intervention is the wrong way to go about it. Perhaps more slips should insist on people being qualified before being able to use them, especially in popular areas. But then of course they'd just go elsewhere. Yeah, it'd be hard to enforce anything, but I still think that if it COULD be enforced, it SHOULD be, and it would be possible in an ideal world, which this is far from.

Matt
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Old 30 August 2002, 10:44   #59
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Compromise

Just a thought.....

In Cape Town (and subsequently in the entire South Africa)a new law came into effect at the tail end of 2001. It is very simple and is mainly aimed at ensuring mariners are at least better prepared to go to see. The basics are :

*Compass and GPS

*Each craft to carry adequate life-jackets for crew with a minimum requirement pertaining to the adequacy of said life-jacket.

*Every craft to have a serviceable VHF radio,(does not have to be licensed as the theory is better to have one unlicensed than not at all).
A mobile phone is better than nothing, but a poor second best.

*Two in date, hand held and 2 parachute flairs.

*Proof of insurance

*Throw line

*First aid kit

*Fire extinguisher

*Anchor with chain and rope

*Finally, your vessels registration papers. Each vessel has to be registered with their local council/authority.

The practise of 'policing' this is pretty straight forward. Raids are carried out frequently at popular slips. You can always try to get away with it, but like drink-driving, it is just a matter of time until you get caught. Here comes the penalty:

**Confiscation of your vessel with everything associated with it, trailer, the lot!

** A fine of no more than £500.00

Severe you might cry, but the equivalent of the RNLI in SA are fed up to the back teeth responding to persons who go to see without these minimum requirements. I agree, you cannot regulate against stupidity, but as supposed civilised western societies you can attempt to enforce common sense which you and I possibly take for granted. South Africa's coastline is far greater than that of the UK, so the footprint for policing is obvioulsy a major obstacle. All reports thus far have been, 'it was about time' and the statistics for search and recovery have virtually dropped by a third. It is still early days so this figure will no doubt get better as time progresses.

My earlier posting with regards to Australia is now much the same. Why are you so against these common-sense laws when clearly you have nothing to worry about as I would think most of us carry these items as a matter of course?
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Old 30 August 2002, 10:58   #60
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Charles

I think you prove my point. I can tell you that up at Hilton of Cadbol and Balintore the PANDABOAT police would have a whale of a time (yet another nautical metaphor).

Keith (what the hexk was this all about anyway) Hart
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