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Old 11 February 2013, 10:11   #1
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Diesel Inboards and Sterndrives.

Hi all.

Just a though Iím pondering at the moment, spured on by chatting to Biff on Friday, and probably wonít happen for a couple of years, if at all, but Iím considering the possibilities and feasibility of taking the Suzuki DT200EFI off the back of my Ocean 6.5 and dropping in a diesel and leg.

The reason for the change is that the cost of fuel means we just donít use it much anymore, so I will obviously also be looking at the numbers surrounding a swap to a newer outboard.

The 6.5 is a great boat, and Iíve done so much to it to get it how I want it, and of course I know it would be easier to sell it and buy a ready-made inboard RIB, but Iím convinced it will be cheaper, and a fantastic opportunity for a project, to convert my current RIB.

Iím happy that I can do the work myself, converting the hull, installation etc, but I just donít know anything about what engines and legs are available.

Obviously Iím aware that they are expensive, and that the more I pay for a used unit the newer, lighter, more reliable engine Iíll get.

Ideally Iíd be looking at @180HP, and 4 cylinder to keep the weight down.

So who knows what?
Has any schematics of sizes?
Or can offer general advise?

Yes Iím aware most of you will think Iím mad, but humour me please with some info.

Thanks

Nasher.
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Old 11 February 2013, 11:18   #2
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Simon

My earlier demo model the Parker 650 known as Black Magic now enjoying life with Greenpeace had the Cummins 2.0 (170HP) with the Bravo 1 leg. This engine is now the Mercury Diesel 2.0
You can also have the 150HP version with Alpha 1 with or without DTS controls and Smarcraft Vessel viewer. all depends on your budget.

it is a very good engine for a 650 rib
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Old 11 February 2013, 11:29   #3
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Thanks Andre

I remember Black Magic being a nice compact installation, so certainly one for the list.

Going to gather as much information as possible so I can make a decision.

Nasher.
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Old 11 February 2013, 12:01   #4
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I know you like an engineering challange but surely, for the cost of the install you could replace the 2 stroke suzuki for a more modern and efficient engine and spend the rest on fuel for the next few years at least!

Having had both inboard diesel and outboard ribs, our next boat will be outboard powered. The diesel was more fuel efficient but also noiser, heavier, took up a huge amount of space in the boat and the outdrive was a pain in the backside for us as the boat was left in the water.

Dont forget you will be paying full duty rate on fuel unless you can convince them you have some sort of heating on the boat, so cost per L is going to be similar to petrol.
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Old 11 February 2013, 12:57   #5
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Two or three thoughts for the mix:

1) The transom thickness and (to a lesser extent) angle are critical for a sterndrive, so check those to make sure its a possiability

2) 2nd hand diesel / stern drives are worth a fortune as everyone with a mercruiser petrol wishes they had a diesel... then they realise they need a new drive too and hence prices pushed up

If its feasable you will have a great boat. The fuel consumption quoted from the mercury 2.0 is fantastic and i've often fancied one (or two ) of those in a rib. Andre is best placed to advise I think... PS: Hi Andre

Im sure its long gone, but 10 years ago Stu Hopkins bought the 165 yamaha and drive that Mike removed from magellan. I dont recall what he did with it, and hes just the kind of guy to have it in his shed still....
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Old 11 February 2013, 13:01   #6
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I really can't see the point, as a proper job must be north of £20k, including supply of package, re structuring boat, re building transom, engine hatch, etc etc. Unless it's a love job for someone

Here's some tech on Mercruisers, but to be honest they're a dog of a motor. For Diesel it would have to be Yanmar, or even Volvo or Volkswagen, but never Merc, they can't even give them away!

http://download.brunswick-marine.com/download/dosearch/@isnew/desc?mod=7&lang=EN&categories=MERCRUISER$2012$Dies el$CMD%202.0L$
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Old 11 February 2013, 13:02   #7
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Im sure its long gone, but 10 years ago Stu Hopkins bought the 165 yamaha and drive that Mike removed from magellan. I dont recall what he did with it, and hes just the kind of guy to have it in his shed still....
I bought it, and fitted it in a sportscruiser, was a sweet little engine!
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Old 11 February 2013, 13:04   #8
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small world innit!!

Like the man says, 8-10k for a used engine and drive, 15-20k for a new one plus all the work and materials for an engine box...

Brand new bolt on 150 opti must be about £10k now days??
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Old 11 February 2013, 13:10   #9
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Originally Posted by Daniel View Post
Two or three thoughts for the mix:

1) The transom thickness and (to a lesser extent) angle are critical for a sterndrive, so check those to make sure its a possiability

2) 2nd hand diesel / stern drives are worth a fortune as everyone with a mercruiser petrol wishes they had a diesel... then they realise they need a new drive too and hence prices pushed up

.
Transom thickness is easily solved, 2" give or take a 16th", nothing that either a router or a sheet of ply wont solve. Angle is critical, ideally needs to be 13 degrees, but anywhere between 11 and 15 is ok. A drive is a drive. Small petrols and diesels use an Alpha1, big diesels and petrols use a Bravo. Only difference would be the ratio, but a prop swap usually takes care of that, if not, a gear swap is only a couple of hundred.

As for every one with a petrol wishes they had a diesel, in your dreams!!! Dirty noisy smelly, and ever so slow when you compare each option by pricing. You can have a pair of 300hp Smallblock packages for the price of one 300hp diesel.
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Old 11 February 2013, 13:18   #10
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If i had a 4.0 petrol inboard, i'd wish i had a diesel. Fair enough perhaps not everyone agrees with me. i didnt realise you could put a diesel on an alpha drive though, surely that makes the project more affordable as there's a fair few of those aboout 2nd hand???
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Old 11 February 2013, 13:30   #11
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The little Merc diesel comes on an Alpha, but that motor ain't much cop. Plenty of drives about, not so easy to find a decent transom assembly though.

Bravo is the way forward, can probably source a new drive and transom for around £3500 if you know where to look!
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Old 11 February 2013, 13:40   #12
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Originally Posted by Dirk Diggler View Post
The little Merc diesel comes on an Alpha, but that motor ain't much cop. Plenty of drives about, not so easy to find a decent transom assembly though.

Bravo is the way forward, can probably source a new drive and transom for around £3500 if you know where to look!

The little Merc can also come on a Bravo 1 and with the DTS controls and Smartcraft vessel viewer
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Old 11 February 2013, 13:41   #13
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I'm gonna get shot for this

Hyundai have a 170hp on the market - I think it marries up to the Bravo leg. It's a lightish motor at 261kg

And no, I don't know a damned thing about it
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Old 11 February 2013, 13:56   #14
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Surely a new bolt on Sooz or merc 4stroke is the economical choice. They'll do circa 1L per mile on a 6.5m. (2 stroke perhaps 1.2L)

Super quiet and good mileage. £5-10k cheaper than a 2nd hand/new inboard diesel installation, so unless you're doing SERIOUS mileage it won't pay off for a decade or more.

If you used red it would pay off much more quickly, but you'd still have to recoup £5-10k of petrol which is roughly 3-5k miles of cruising! :0

Using legitimate diesel you're never going to recoup the outlay in my eyes.

Ultimately the new four stroke would be easier to sell on too. More room, cleaner, more reliable and cheaper to service.

I just can't see the figures working.
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Old 11 February 2013, 13:56   #15
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I reckon the Hyundai has real potential, although I believe it's quite a tall motor. It's certainly light.

The motor I fancy though is the new Volkswagen 4.2, which is the Audi motor.
Should give the Yanmar motors a run for their money.

I've done quite a few Yanmar 315's, but they are a really dirty engine. Never manged to break a drive though, or rip the side out of the motor, which used to be quite common.
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Old 11 February 2013, 14:40   #16
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but if you use older engine might be able to make bio deisel
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Old 11 February 2013, 15:45   #17
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A bit of a left field idea. Have you considered fitting an outboard extension bracket? An old mate of mine from the States always swore by them. He has used identical boats with/without and was always impressed by the difference (he used the word 'Awesome' with alarming frequency). Even if you don't experience the gains that the manufacturers claim, you should still see an improvement in consumption especially if you have the best prop for your preferred cruising speed.

He used to use Armstrong brackets but I'm sure there are others just as good out there.

You wont see diesel consumption figures but then you wont get the same conversion hit.

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Old 11 February 2013, 16:43   #18
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I did the same when I had a 6.5m tornado. I took twin mariner 75s off and put a Volvo d3-160 in with an sx stern drive. The installation was very nice and the boat was phenomenal, in fact performance was identical to the twin 75 setup in both top speed and acceleration thanks to the variable geometry turbo......now here is the bad news, the VP D3 was an awful engine with loads of fault codes and VP UK were clueless as were the local dealer. So my advice is don't buy a small VP but otherwise with the modern common rail engines there are viable options about.
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Old 11 February 2013, 16:59   #19
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Keep the info coming guys, thanks.

The Hyundai is one I'd seen and liked the look of.

As mentioned in my initial post I've not ruled out a newer outboard, but need to gather as much info as possible to decide what to do.
As also mentioned I'd be diong the work myself so there will be no hourly rate to pay, plus it's the sort of thing I really enjoy doing.

I spent some time at the Southampton show talking to the various outboard manufacturers about engines, and haven't even ruled out keeping the DT200EFI completely as at 25 to 26knts it is using @1.3 to 1.4l/mile, which is etec like on a heavy 6.5 like the Ocean, it's higher up the speed range where it gets silly.

I'll be looking at second hand whichever way I go, and as it won't be happening for quite some time I have the benefit of being able to keep my eye out for a bargain.

However
The one thing I would miss is the fantastic 2-stroke howl the DT makes that even newer 2-strokes can't match.

Nasher
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Old 12 February 2013, 03:49   #20
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Morning, you know this post will be biased towards derv, the way I see it is we all want what we want, sometimes we buy it even though we can't afford it, once you've got it be it a good or bad decision you have to use it. Now here's the crunch, if it cost you a fortune every time you go out then it doesn't get used and you start thinking all kinds of thing like, why the f#k did I buy it, I'm going to sell it and loads of other things I can't think of as I've only had one cuppa.
We can argue the toss on speed, economy, reliability weight, deck space, which you don't lose its just higher, all day long, I've got a an old sea rider here that is derv and will do over 50knts, my old girl burns 18lts per hour flat out, GPS says 42.9 knts.
Anyway to my point when I go out I don't make any consideration for fuel, I just go out and have fun, I'm not thinking will I have enough fuel, slow down the fuel is going too fast, etc we've all been there right, we are all here for a good time not a long time, what we are doing isn't a rehearsal it the real thing, buy and do what you want to do, if boating costs give you the shits sell the boat and do something you like doing, if you love boating, bugger the costs we are a long time dead
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