Commercial Use - Real world meaning

[smallribber]

Most on here are aware that you can only buy a new 2 stroke for 'Commercial' use. What in real world Practical terms does that mean.

Do you just tell the supplier it is for commercial use, is there any paperwork etc.

Has anyone bought one recently.

Of course Fenlander's Triggers Broom outboard could be considered new

[spartacus]

The rules are clear, a leisure user (Recreational Craft Directive) cannot legally purchase a new 2-stroke outboard motor in the UK or EU. This applies to carburetted engines only. Modern 2-stroke fuel injected engines are not included, and of course existing 2-stroke curburetted engines can continue to be traded second-hand until they give out their last puff of smoke.

This is quite an interesting link: A two stroke or four stroke outboard engine ? | www.penninemarine.com

What does that mean in the real world? Well in order to purchase one you probably need to be VAT registered for starters, and have associated paperwork for your business if you then want to claim on the warranty. The onus is on the seller to comply with the law. That said you can purchase one where the RCD doesn't apply (rest if the world) and import it, but it's a complicated business and you'll have import duties, declarations which apply for intended use etc. Australia for example extended the time for retailers to sell non compliant stock up to June 1 this year.

[GuyC]

Interesting article.

I know KTM are now marketing 2 strokes again with, I guess, a different design of engine. A quick look on line suggests their biggest 2 stroke is a 300cc that chucks out around 50hp. It will be interesting to see whether that technology arrives in the outboard world. KTM must think there is a benefit to going to 2 stroke for their off road motorbikes but I wonder if it is relevant to outboards.

[Fenlander]

The law is clear as spartacus says and as per his link.

The practicality/morality is between you, your dealer and you maker.

[smallribber]

Well I see to have got all the theory but not the real world truth. Anyone done it and know what is actually entailed not what might be entailed

[Poly]

Originally Posted by smallribber

Well I see to have got all the theory but not the real world truth. Anyone done it and know what is actually entailed not what might be entailed

Smallribber, a few years ago I had a discussion with a dealer who said that he needed a Purchase Order on company headed paper showing the VAT no of the company buying it. I’m not sure if that was him covering his ass or the distributors requirements. Given I hadn’t been the one to bring up a two-stroke I doubt it was the former. Some manufacturers/distributors may be less stringent.

[smallribber]

Copied and pasted this from an ebay seller. Looks simple enough

All Conventional 2 Stroke Carburettor Outboard Motors do not meet emissions regulations for the recreational craft directive.
Therefore this engine can be sold only for Non-Pleasure use in the UK and Europe, anybody buying this engine will be required by law to sign a declaration stating the kind of use this engine will have before we can release the engine.

[smallribber]

Got an email back from the seller this is what he said

Hi you have to provide a commercial declaration on company headed paper before tohatsu UK will release the engine

So if you set up a company fishing from your sib or doing water side drone work and have a letter head. That should do it. Company could not make much money and even cease trading I suppose i week or so later

[Fenlander]

Yep that's what it comes down to... if you want one and believe you can meet requirements then get in touch with a dealer to check their own requirements which will differ slightly between different outlets.

It's all conjecture until a specific person contacts a specific dealer.

[Oldman2]

A 6hp 2t from China on Amazon UK seemed to say that the engine would be supplied from the UK and offered no data on purchase restrictions.

[ShinyShoe]

Originally Posted by smallribber

Got an email back from the seller this is what he said

Hi you have to provide a commercial declaration on company headed paper before tohatsu UK will release the engine

So if you set up a company fishing from your sib or doing water side drone work and have a letter head. That should do it. Company could not make much money and even cease trading I suppose i week or so later

So either you falsify the declaration. I'm sure there is a law about production of false instruments. OR

You set up a company. As you say that company could cease trading. The cost of doing that is minimal but the PITA it will create with needing to submit accounts etc is not to mention the oddities on the companies House entries of being a director for a short period. Depends how much that stuff bothers you.

Of course, if the commercial entity is running a commercial boat... You can explain why you don't comply with the MCA's expectations for commercial boats?

Why is it OK to polute the environment for your pleasure?

[Poly]

Originally Posted by smallribber

Got an email back from the seller this is what he said

Hi you have to provide a commercial declaration on company headed paper before tohatsu UK will release the engine

So if you set up a company fishing from your sib or doing water side drone work and have a letter head. That should do it. Company could not make much money and even cease trading I suppose i week or so later

It could, at which point presumably you would be putting the engine into recreational use, and transferring the company asset to yourself? At that point technically you have committed the offence of putting it onto the UK/EU recreational market. Of course Trading Standards at your local authority are very unlikely to pay any interest in such a case, unless of course you happen to have declared your intent to commit the offence all over the internet. Even then it’s unlikely you’d come to their attention, unless of course you were the sort of person who enjoyed winding others up online... Oh!

[Maximus]

Some of the attraction of Two Stroke engines is undoubtably the price compared to more complicated and expensive Four Stroke engines....despite the on going oil costs ...let's hope we conclude the US UK Free trade Negotiations ASAP....
You seen what Outboards ....(and plenty of other kit ) cost in the U.S. ?
They don't call us "Treasure Island" for nothing

[HDAV]

Originally Posted by Maximus

Some of the attraction of Two Stroke engines is undoubtably the price compared to more complicated and expensive Four Stroke engines....despite the on going oil costs ...let's hope we conclude the US UK Free trade Negotiations ASAP....
You seen what Outboards ....(and plenty of other kit ) cost in the U.S. ?
They don't call us "Treasure Island" for nothing

Seen the prices in Turkey?

[willk]

Originally Posted by Poly

Even then it’s unlikely you’d come to their attention, unless of course you were the sort of person who enjoyed winding others up online... Oh!

C'mere, I know where he lives... Can I post a picture of his gaff and his postcode?

[Pikey Dave]

Originally Posted by willk

C'mere, I know where he lives... Can I post a picture of his gaff and his postcode?

The farm next door wouldn’t be too difficult to ID[emoji6]

[willk]

Originally Posted by Pikey Dave

The farm next door wouldn’t be too difficult to ID[emoji6]

Is it odd? It was the mad garden that I was able to spot from space

[smallribber]

I suspect the real question is what is the definition of Commercial and if
to be commercial you have to register etc including all that faff. Unless of course you already have several companies as many people do. There are still a lot of old two strokes on the market to not presently push people in this direction so no real issue

I was just interested if anyone had done it or not either legitimately or otherwise

[Fenlander]

As I said above if you want to do it then it's between you and the dealer you approach.

But if it's just you wondering if it has been done...

Over the last decade or so members on here have bought new sub 20hp 2-strokes by various means inc from UK dealers, from the Channel Islands & from a third party seller importing from Eastern Europe. They include mostly Tohatsus, Mercury/Mariner and Suzuki.

But even if they are still posting I doubt these folks are going to explain the why and wherefore.

Interestingly the Suzuki 15hp 2-stroke someone bought is the lightest of its HP at 33kg.

[tidalwave2.7]

Originally Posted by ShinyShoe

So either you falsify the declaration. I'm sure there is a law about production of false instruments. OR

You set up a company. As you say that company could cease trading. The cost of doing that is minimal but the PITA it will create with needing to submit accounts etc is not to mention the oddities on the companies House entries of being a director for a short period. Depends how much that stuff bothers you.

Of course, if the commercial entity is running a commercial boat... You can explain why you don't comply with the MCA's expectations for commercial boats?

Why is it OK to polute the environment for your pleasure?

Finally somebody got to the real point. Pollution! Old outboards spew out plenty of it. And as a toy �� is not justified. Boating surface coatings were more tightly regulated many years ago to reduce toxic leaching in shallow areas and effecting marine life. However we are still fully addicted to global container shipping and those bulk carriers burn heavy oil and are responsible for a massive co2 load. So surely it’s time even commercial users had a date to change over. As to the exclusion for racing! Time to kill that too.

Or is simply that fishermen shout loudest regards retaining old dirty engines. From my experience most fishing is carried out from larger vessels with onboard diesel power plants.

I own an old 2 stroke unused for some time now. But if I were buying new now I have no issue in going for a cleaner 4 stroke or fuel injection 2 stroke model. I know they are heavier/more expensive but that’s life.

All this seeking to subvert the rules is much like tax evasion. A personal gain for one at the expense of many.