using a registered commercial boat for pleasure trip

[Neville]

Im planning on taking a large coded rib out to a well known outcrop of rock 200 miles north west of the uk. This is a pleasure trip only , the boat will also be outwith its maximum distance from land allowed for its coding. Has anyone experience of this situation ?

Normally the vessel is used for rescue / patrol purposes but this one is just a jolly.

Neville

[Searider]

If it's your own boat and a purely pleasure trip then no problems.

If it's not your boat and you're hiring it in then it's not permitted as it will be outside of its coding certification.

[C2 RIBS]

Worth remembering that when boat is coded all coding equipment should be on the crafy even when used privately. That means the number of lifejackets and water etc.

[Poly]

Originally Posted by Searider

If it's not your boat and you're hiring it in then it's not permitted as it will be outside of its coding certification.

Duncan, am I right in thinking that bareboat charter for non commercial purposes doesn't have a "limit"?

[Steve_B]

The commercal limits apply when operating a commercial service, i.e providing a service for passengers/freight for reward.

If you and friends are taking a coded boat on a pleasure trip (even if you all share the running costs) you are showing that you are taking the correct precautions and I would take all the safety kit and more, on a journey such as this.

[Searider]

Originally Posted by Polwart

Duncan, am I right in thinking that bareboat charter for non commercial purposes doesn't have a "limit"?

No,

If a boat is chartered bareboat its Coding limits still apply - ie Category 2 60 miles from safe haven etc.

The only difference will be the qualifications of the charterers will be up to the Owner (in line with his insurers requirements).

[Searider]

Originally Posted by 250kts

The commercal limits apply when operating a commercial service, i.e providing a service for passengers/freight for reward.

If you and friends are taking a coded boat on a pleasure trip (even if you all share the running costs) you are showing that you are taking the correct precautions and I would take all the safety kit and more, on a journey such as this.

Not quite,

If the Owner (or managing agent) charters to boat to anyone, for any purpose, its coding limits still apply.

To the OP - if the Owner takes you out 200 miles in his boat for a jolly, all at his expense, then that, I think, should be OK.

[Steve_B]

Ok no arguement with that, I mis-understood the original question. I read it as not being a boat being hired/paid for, i.e. no money changing hands.

If I or someone I trusted wanted to take our boat over to the Channel Islands for a pleasure trip and just pay for any expenses, then whilst it would go beyond the 20 miles from the nearest safe harbour (by about 5 miles) the Cat 3 limit, it would not be illegle to do so.

The insurance would usually be linked into the boats commercial limitations, but ours does cover the French coast/Channel Islands. So if we ran a commercial trip across the Channel, we would have to travel upstream first, to where the crossing distance is no more than 40 miles.

[Doug Stormforce]

Originally Posted by 250kts

If I or someone I trusted wanted to take our boat over to the Channel Islands for a pleasure trip and just pay for any expenses, then whilst it would go beyond the 20 miles from the nearest safe harbour (by about 5 miles) the Cat 3 limit, it would not be illegle to do so.

Are you sure about that?

Surely when a boat operates privately it dow not fall under the code or category limit

[Neville]

THe vessel is not chartered, its owned by myself (and coded for commercial charter work) However my gut feeling is that since its registered we would need an exemption cert to do it legally.

Probably a grey area I know but would be good to know if im doing anything wrong.

Suppose a call to the MCA would sort it out.


Neville

[C2 RIBS]

Originally Posted by Doug Stormforce

Surely when a boat operates privately it dow not fall under the code or category limit

Doug I understand that a coding on a boat means it is always coded even when used privately, so basically the MCA can board and inspect any coded boat. If you are out privately there is no problem but you still need every bit of coding equipment including the extra lifejacket percentage etc etc.
In this case it is clearly private use but coding certification still applies. I am not sure how the extra distance works and happy to accept rules may have changed but we had this discussed at a recent PCA meeting.

I think Neville I would speak to MCA to clarify and if there is an exemption we all need to know more as the MCN 280 is very complex

[tim griffin]

Bare boat charter on a coded boat requires the hirer to be comm endorsed.
Even if no cash changes hand , same applies when I do exams on candidates on a coded boat someone on the boat must be comm endorsed .
The examiner is not resposible for the boat the school/candidate is so they need suitably qualified person onboard.




I would contact MCA to clarify your position .
Tim

[Doug Stormforce]

I don't think you need to ring the MCA. Most of these question can be answered by simply reading the code.

Originally Posted by tim griffin

Bare boat charter on a coded boat requires the hirer to be comm endorsed.
Even if no cash changes hand , same applies when I do exams on candidates on a coded boat someone on the boat must be comm endorsed .
The examiner is not resposible for the boat the school/candidate is so they need suitably qualified person onboard.

The situation is a bit simpler than that. What the code actually says is

"A vessel operating on bare-boat charter/hire as a pleasure vessel is not subject to the safe manning conditions given in Annex 3."

I do not believe that bare boat charter on a coded boat does requires the hirer to be comm endorsed, neither do I believe exams need an extra qualified person on board to satisfy the law.

Originally Posted by C2 RIBS

Doug I understand that a coding on a boat means it is always coded even when used privately, so basically the MCA can board and inspect any coded boat. If you are out privately there is no problem but you still need every bit of coding equipment including the extra lifejacket percentage etc etc.
In this case it is clearly private use but coding certification still applies. I am not sure how the extra distance works and happy to accept rules may have changed but we had this discussed at a recent PCA meeting.

I interpret this differently. The code states that

“Pleasure vessel” as defined in the Merchant Shipping (Small Commercial Vessels and Pilot Boats) Regulations 2004, means;
(a) a vessel which - (i) is owned by an individual, and (ii) at the time it is being used -

(aa) is used only for the sport or pleasure of the owner or the immediate family or friends of the owner, and
(bb) is on a free voyage or excursion;

(b) a vessel which -
(i) is owned by a body corporate, and (ii) at the time it is being used -
(aa) is used only for the sport or pleasure of employees or officers of the body corporate, or their immediate family or friends, and
(bb) is on a free voyage or excursion;

The important wording is the "at the time is being used".

From first hand experience the MCA have previously stopped me on a previous coded RIB for a spot inspection during Cowes Week. They asked if the boat was coded, I said yes, they asked for the certificates, I said it was not on board, they asked to see the life raft (removed). I explained that I was the owner of the boat, I was not working, I was commuting to the mainland and the only passengers were two friends and my dog and they laughed, apologised for holding me up and left me alone.

Neville in answer to your original question I believe that as long as there is genuinely no commercial angle then you do what you like. You can cross the Atlantic if you can carry enough fuel. Sounds like an interesting trip, one that i would like to do myself someday. Have fun.

[tim griffin]

Intersting comment Doug
This was raised by Richard Falk at my last examiners update and also Rachael Andrews at my Trainers update.
Tim

[Poly]

Originally Posted by tim griffin

Bare boat charter on a coded boat requires the hirer to be comm endorsed.

no it doesn't. MGN 280 specifically states that there are no qualification requirements if the boat is being hired for pleasure (if it is being used for commercial work then the normal rules apply - otherwise there would be a loophole)

[tim griffin]

Originally Posted by tim griffin

I would contact MCA to clarify your position .
Tim

Ahh Polwart as usual you have found something to debate I should have added schools hiring coded boats for teaching need to have suitably endorsed people in charge of it .Same applies I still feel for exams on school boats as its coded and being used for comm work.
Was so busy going off to work on the water was in a rush to put in my 2p worth forgot that bit.
But thanks for highlighting it to the forum and hope th OP gets it cleared up by the MCA as two schools lost recognition this year because of there interpretation of the rules not being correct.



Tim

[Poly]

Originally Posted by tim griffin

Ahh Polwart as usual you have found something to debate

I wasn't trying to start a debate, merely clarify something which I think is quite clear in the code. Its hard enough for leisure users to find bareboat charters without anyone getting the wrong end of the stick and asking for commercial tickets.

I should have added schools hiring coded boats for teaching need to have suitably endorsed people in charge of it .

interesting I would have assumed that the normal "RYA 3 mile from categorised waters" exemption applied.

Same applies I still feel for exams on school boats as its coded and being used for comm work.

interesting tim, if you want a debate: I can see how you might arrive at that conclusion (certainly outside the 3 mile limit). I recognise that examiners are not supposed to be involved in running the vessel. However, if you felt it was heading into danger would you not intervene (presumably automatically failing the candidate)? Its a bit like saying a driving examiner can't fulfill the function of competent supervisor in a car during the test. So if YOU bareboat a vessel for an exam, then you need a commercial skipper on board in addition to the candidate and the examiner? Who is in charge? If it hits something who is going to get the blame? If the commercial skipper intervenes unnecessarily (as he would be entitled to do) how does that screw up the exam? Now what if I bareboat charter and then turn up for the exam. Surely if I can make a journey from A-B legally without a comm. skipper on board I can do the same with you watching over my shoulder?

Did the schools loose registration only because of this? No personal experience but I'd have expected this was just a "must stop this practice immediately" rather than a case of "so far off the understanding of the rules / principles of operating a school to the RYA guidance we can't continue registration". Given some of the things I've seen, I think you'd have to try quite hard to get struck off.

[Tony Hill]

I would be grateful if those who are posting could clarify the situation of commercial examinations in coded boats.
We operate a fleet of commercially coded RIBs. I struggle with the concept that you can take an Advanced Powerboat Commercial endorsement which allows you to operate a coded boat for up to 12 passengers in an uncoded RIB which may be less than 6m in length and not particularly 'powerful' The licence states 12 passengers, my personal view is the boat used in an examination should be coded for 12 and have seating for all passengers.

With this in mind I insist that Advanced Commercial examinations for my own skippers is done on one of our own coded RIBs (LOA 10m, twin 250HP engines, seating for 12 passengers). When this RIB goes out with the examiner, should I have one of my own skipper's on board to be responsible for the boat? I had always thought till this point that the RYA examiner and the candidates was sufficient.
Thanks

Tony

[Doug Stormforce]

Originally Posted by Tony Hill

I would be grateful if those who are posting could clarify the situation of commercial examinations in coded boats.
We operate a fleet of commercially coded RIBs. I struggle with the concept that you can take an Advanced Powerboat Commercial endorsement which allows you to operate a coded boat for up to 12 passengers in an uncoded RIB which may be less than 6m in length and not particularly 'powerful' The licence states 12 passengers, my personal view is the boat used in an examination should be coded for 12 and have seating for all passengers.

With this in mind I insist that Advanced Commercial examinations for my own skippers is done on one of our own coded RIBs (LOA 10m, twin 250HP engines, seating for 12 passengers). When this RIB goes out with the examiner, should I have one of my own skipper's on board to be responsible for the boat? I had always thought till this point that the RYA examiner and the candidates was sufficient.
Thanks

Tony

Tony

First of all exams for adv power can and do take place on non coded boats.

I don't think myself that the boat matters too much. The qualification can be used on single and twin set ups, on displacement and planning craft, on petrol, diesel, jet, outboard, stern drive, shaft, IPS....etc. having 12 seats on the boat does not actually test the candidate any differently than having for example 6 seats. The boat has to be equipped for the area it will be operating in. I can of course see why you would want your guys to be trained and examined in the boat they are going to drive- that makes a lot of sense.

In answer to your more important question there is no coding/legal requirement for one of your skippers to be on board during an exam. That is a complete red herring. If this was the case I have a feeling that the RYA would have told all Yachtmaster Examiners and would have told all the training / exam centres. I can assure you this is not something they have told us and is not something required by the code. Remember adv. power exams are only a very small part of a much bigger system of Yachtmaster exams.

[Doug Stormforce]

Tim

I think the whole exam/training things is a bit of a red herring. The OP has no interest in running exams. That said I do not agree on the need for a quallified skipper to sit on an exam. There is of course no problem with you doing this but its not something Stormforce or the thousands of other Yachtmaster exam centres do.

Originally Posted by tim griffin

........two schools lost recognition this year because of there interpretation of the rules not being correct.

Originally Posted by Polwart

Did the schools loose registration only because of this?

This is i am afraid another red herring. There were three schools that actually lost their recognition (in connection to coding) last year (not this year). To suggest they mis interpreted the rules is a massive understatement. Two of them sent punters paying thousands of pounds on Atlantic ocean passages on Cat 2 boats (60 mile limit). This behaviour can only be described as that off cowboys, these guys knew full well they were operating outside of the law, this was not a case of them interpreting the rules incorrectly. The third was operating a 37 foot yacht 2 or 3 years out of code and after the MCA had put a prohibition notice on it. All three schools had had several complaints over a variety of issues. The coding was one of may infractions and not related to this discussion.

We all knew that the third one was cutting corners, it was only a matter of time before he got caught. I for one was particularly happy that he was closed down he was an embarrassment to RYA training and dragged down the integrity of the whole scheme.