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Old 22 August 2002, 11:36   #11
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"compulsory basic training to ride a motorbike does not stop people riding and enjoying it..."

Well I can speak with some authority on this as I was in the motorcycle industry at the time and I sat on the government and industry committies that brought in CBT for motorcycles.

The cost was VERY high. Fortunately there was a national motorcycle training scheme (Star Rider) who had for about 15 years previously set up training centres all over the UK. There had to be a national standard set up for the CBT instructors. The DSA (Driving Standards Agency) oversaw the scheme.

The bureaucracy was unbelievable. Forms, more forms, licences, examinations, monitoring, examination fees and THAT was just for the CBT instructors. Many small training schemes could not cope or afford to carry on. In the end even Star Rider went under leaving training to the more aggressively commercial companies. Training courses that were 12.00 rocketed up to several hundred pounds. Many people did not bother and went straight onto cars. We always suspected that this was the government's secret agenda.

None of this stopped people riding dangerously. None of this stopped dangerous car drivers killing motorcyclists. Fatal motorcycle accident figures did go down - there were less people riding motorcycles!

Just take a look at that idiot kid who has just passed your car on his scooter....he has done CBT, did it stop him? No.

Of course on motorcycles we have compulsory helmets for the rider and passenger. Motorcycles and indeed all road vehicle are covered by 'Type Approval', crash testing, MOT, driving licence, insurance, construction and use regulations, many road traffic acts, highway code, ROAD TAX! Need I say more?

Do you want this for boating? I don't.

I remember at one meeting I attended someone read out a letter in a newspaper from the parents of a young lad who was killed on a motorcycle. They said that motorcycling was dangerous and that it should be banned altogether. They also said that if a ban on motorcycling saved just one life then it was worth it.

Jerry ??? (can't remember his surname) who was at the time president of the British Motorcyclists Federation, said this was nonsense. He said that just about everything we did has danger attached and that the price of one life was worth the enjoyment of millions of people. Whatever we do somone will get killed doing it. I'm sure that someone must have been killed by being poked in the eye with a knitting needle! Shall we regulate knitting?

Having worked in an industry that suffered the imposition of more and more legislation I can tell you that I do not want to see boating going onto that particular sandbank.

I can tell you that when I was looking at getting my little boat if I was faced with:

Getting a licence
Getting Insurance
Registering the boat
Buying life jackets (okay so I did get those), gps, radio, radar and whatever else the government decided I needed
Doing a radio course
Booking and paying for a training course
Travelling to the coast for the course
Taking a written test
Taking a practical test
Updating my boating licence
Having an annual MOT style test on my boat
Paying an annual TAX on my boat

I would most probably not have bothered and I certainly could not have afforded to do so. RIB Net would have one less member (okay so there is one advantage!)

Next question is - who the heck is going to 'police' these regulations? Coastguard, local council, Environment Agency, the police, the Royal Navy? Just imagine how many staff they would need, and just think of who would have to pay! Us.

Crikey, as a non commercial boater the sea is about the last perishing place I can go to escape all these blooming regulations and interference from government. I'd like to keep it that way.

Keith (it's a very slippery slope) Hart
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Old 22 August 2002, 12:04   #12
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Hope you are feeling better after getting all that off your chest ?

I still believe there is no substitute for good training coupled with experience. How do regulate experience anyway??
A sport I used to partake in and competed on an international level (as well as 2 other members of ribnet) was fairly heavily regulated, that is by your peers. The sport happens to be skydiving, and all the rules contained in a book known as the BSR's (Basic Safety Regulations) were enforced, amongst other reasons, to protect the idiots who had a death-wish and had scant disregard for their fellow jumpers. The more jumps you acquired and tasks you completed meant that you were graded in a licensing system. If you happen to be travelling anywhere in the world and arrived at a drop-zone, the CI (chief instructor) would immediately be able to assess your ability due to the license you held. I felt this worked pretty well.

I believe it is all about 'BALANCE'. Common sense regulations with a minimum of fuss as far as bureaucracy is concerned. Out of interest to anyone following this thread, no craft may be under way in the Channel Islands without it being registered. Each craft under thirty feet is issued a JY number which must be prominently displayed, the larger craft's registration is its name. This system, I must confess, works very well. The only criteria is that one has to show your valid insurance papers and have adequate cover for water-skiing, or water toys. There are no qualifications a person requires to helm a craft.
Fundamentally, I think there should be a standard, at least, that a person has to attain before taking the helm. That is my opinion and you do not necessarily have to agree.
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Old 22 August 2002, 12:16   #13
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yes register RIB and all boats..better system needed than SSR...
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Old 22 August 2002, 12:16   #14
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SSR

Smaller boats are frequently registered on the Small Ships Register (SSR) if they are to be used abroad and will display a number preceded by the letters "SSR". This does not provide evidence of title and a new certificate must be obtained by the new owner. If you are not going to use your boat abroad, I see no reason at all to part with 16.00.
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Old 22 August 2002, 12:38   #15
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Hi again....

Yes Charles I did feel better for it!

Let me make it clear, I'm all for training. I'm against compulsion.

Keith (I demand regulation for the use of parentheses) Hart
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Old 22 August 2002, 12:48   #16
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I am not saying an anual health check for boats like an MOT...I am just saying that as the waterways get busier...eg the Solent at the weekend...How many pepole do u know who correctly obey crossing regulations and just cut across your bow....
I see magazines displaying people on fast boats small and pick with no lifejackets that is common sense no matter how good a swimmer u are......
I thnik anyone who drives a powerboat of more than 6/7 knots should do a planing craft compulsory training course. A 2.2m inflatable with a 2 hp outboard is less likely to damage property or persons than a 20ft hard chine or RIB....designed to do 30 knots...I am not saying training stops problems it might reduce them.....
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Old 22 August 2002, 16:58   #17
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Keith,

Reading through your arguments, and very passionate they were too! Would you be good enough too clarify a few points for me.

Would you be in favour of me popping into a bike shop and buying a Kwacker 1100 (green of course) and taking it out on the road with no trainig or ticket

Do you feel it's ok to run a boat without it being insured

Do you see a difference in requirements between say a 4 metre boat and an 8 metre boat in terms of trainig, safety equipment and driver knowledge

Regards

Stuart
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Old 22 August 2002, 18:23   #18
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nigel - looking forward to a ride in your new valiant!

Lovely!
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Old 22 August 2002, 19:40   #19
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Whatever your view on this, I reckon it's on the way (ie some form of compulsory licensing/registration) - and having looked at the new MCA requirements for passage plans, it's sort of already here. The wording of the SOLAS 2002 regs seems a bit loose, but a quick summary would seem to be that all vessels which leave a "safe haven" must have a radar reflector, charts and compass "where possible", and certain navigational information must be carried - weather forecast and navigational information (ie a passage plan). As this is the sort of stuff that the RYA will teach you about, it seems just a step away from some form of compulsory certification.

PS - I was planning to take my little dinghy to France this year (no, not a cross channel epic in a 3.6m - but taking it over in the car boot), so I did my ICC, then realised that to comply fully with the law, I ought to get PepperII SSR registered! (and fly a red ensign, courtesy flag...) Does anyone have a boat this small on the SSR?
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Old 23 August 2002, 02:39   #20
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Here's an interesting quote I came across in the September issuse of Practical Boat Owner. ..

"There is a perception among some bureaucrats and legislators that people are too irresponsible to learn about boats and the sea voluntarily; and they need to be forced to do so. Each year, more than 120,000 enthusiasts choose to take RYA shorebased courses, which just goes to prove that the men in suits are wrong."

This came from one James Stevens, the guy responsible for RYA training.

If the RYA is against compulsory training, badbaws, d'you think you might just have got this one wrong?
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