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Old 09 January 2012, 16:29   #61
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To the person who says the boats are over spec can I ask would you get up at 3am in force 9 winds knowing the boats not capable???? I didnít think so. The boats are built to withstand the worse conditions imaginable and that costs money. Crewmen and women want to go out and come home as well and if the RNLI cut corners on the build of their boats then this might not happen.
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That would be me then, I never said the boats wern't fit for purpose or not capable, just overspecced.
The inshore boats probably aren't too bad but do you really needs SIMS on an ALB to tell you the seacocks are open and joystick control complete with touch screen?
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Old 09 January 2012, 16:50   #62
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I might offer to buy Mont St. Michel a new lifeboat in a few years time; I think it would be a nice gesture. The current one is a moth-eaten old sib that I only saw for the first time this summer; I don't even know if it's even used anymore.

Thinking about the RNLI, I know there are a lot of boat house politics and that some crew may enjoy the limelight (be honest, who wouldn't?), but being in serious trouble at sea must be so frightening that just seeing a lifeboat coming your way would have you thanking Jesus/Allah/Jehova.
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Old 09 January 2012, 16:50   #63
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but I suspect Mrs Willk will assume its a ruse to get a rib for yourself and disapprove the expenditure!
Can't - I'm saving that name "Mrs willk" in case I need to deploy it in my "argument" for a new RIB. She'll never go for it, but it's a good opener...

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Old 09 January 2012, 16:52   #64
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hmm, im quite curious about this now......

Can anyone on here actually give a breakdown of how the RNLI spend their (our) money?

I have heard that something like 20% is spent on marketing and fundraising projects....is this true and if so, how is the rest spent?

The reason for my curiosity is that, after reading the last information i recieved from the French SNSM i noticed it mentioned there are now 232 operational stations in France.
A quick Wiki search revealed that the RNLI has only 235 operational stations, a mere 3 more than their French conterpart.

So the question is, why does the RNLI need a budget of 147 million (also from Wikipedia) when a quick hop 80 or so miles south across the channel reveals a similar operation but running on one seventh of what the RNLI has at its disposal?

Im not trying to incite suspicion into such a worthy charity but merely curious as to why, on the surface, it would seem to be somewhat economically ineficient.

Why do the RNLI need so much money?

Simon
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Old 09 January 2012, 16:53   #65
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enshewer de sirvival ov dis speshies wots inn dainger ov extinkshun dew too a contrakt bein putt owt onn im bi sum irysh nobbur.
I should keep it down if i were you - Five O might be tailing you...

...geddit - tailing, tail...

...oh never mind
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Old 09 January 2012, 16:55   #66
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Can't - I'm saving that name "Mrs willk" in case I need to deploy it in my "argument" for a new RIB. She'll never go for it, but it's a good opener...

Diplomacy is essential .. if she thinks it a big bouncy thing with extra bouyancy and airbags to keep it afloat you could be on a tightrope
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Old 09 January 2012, 17:11   #67
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http://www.rnli.org.uk/what_we_do/li.../running_costs

Give you break down on your donations...
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Old 09 January 2012, 17:15   #68
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Why do the RNLI need so much money?
They don't need so much money, but why settle for anything less than the very best if you can afford it? Then it becomes circular because each new lifeboat costs such a staggering amount so they need to raise ever greater amounts of money.

As far as I know the RNLI admin/fundraising/management costs are pretty much in line with the norm.
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Old 09 January 2012, 17:29   #69
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hmm, im quite curious about this now......

Can anyone on here actually give a breakdown of how the RNLI spend their (our) money?

I have heard that something like 20% is spent on marketing and fundraising projects....is this true and if so, how is the rest spent?
84% goes on "operational expenditure" and 16p on the costs of fundraising.

Here's a breakdown from the 2010 Annual Report:RNLI Download Centre

INCOME £153.6 M
Legacies 59%
Raised voluntary income 33% (Donations?)
Net investment income 2%
Net merchandising and other trading 4%
Lifeguarding and other income 2%

REVENUE EXPEND £145.5 M
Rescue 44% (I assume this includes training etc - not just live shouts)
Maintainence 34%
Cost of generating vol income 16%
Prevention 3%
Innovation 3%

CAPEX £37.5 M
Lifeboat stations 44%
Boats and launching kit 40%
Other plant 11%
Other property 5%


You'd need to dig into the accounts though to see if comparing the french to the uk is comparable. E.g. are our stations buying / renting land for station and the french donated by govt etc?
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Old 09 January 2012, 18:08   #70
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Thanks SPR and Polwart for the info....

Well its no bloody wonder the RNLI need so much money when you look at the maintenance costs of the lifeboats themselves...(the link that SPR posted)

£75000-£114000 ANNUAL maintenance cost for the all weather lifeboats???? Sorry RNLI but your taking the piss there...

I have an annual maintenance budget for each of the tugs i look after of less than £75000 and im talking £8million pounds worth of tug, classed for oil pollutiion recovery and fire fighting (to FiFi 2 standards) working 24hs, 365 days a year, regulary tasked by the MCA as emergency towing vessels) and thje RNLI justify upto £114K for a boat which probably only racks up a couple hundred running hours per year?(

Over 8k per year to 'maintain' a little 'D' class??

I think a little outsourcing to the private sector wouldnt go amiss there...

I actually feel really disapointed to have read all that....ignorance is bliss i suppose.

Simon
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Old 09 January 2012, 18:28   #71
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How much is a new ILB1 these days, if you didn't maintain it for a few years you could just have a brand new one every three years....
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Old 09 January 2012, 18:38   #72
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How much is a new ILB1 these days, if you didn't maintain it for a few years you could just have a brand new one every three years....
SPR's link lists a B class as £180k. Maintainance of 12k p.a.
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Old 09 January 2012, 18:51   #73
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SPR's link lists a B class as £180k. Maintainance of 12k p.a.
I'm on about the little flip flops that took over from the D class. Still 8k for a D class and 12k for an Atlantic is disproportionate.
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Old 09 January 2012, 18:56   #74
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I read in the RNLI magazine that the E class mk2 costs £400k to design and build! A tad expensive when compare to the relatively "off the shelf" PLA/MCA/Met Police boats that operate in the same conditions.

It is important to stress Polwart's point that NOBODY should feel safer just because the RNLI/emergency services are there. Everybody should put to sea properly prepared, with the appropriate equipment and training.

Better yet invite a mate along on their boat and have your own Seastart/RNLI boat and a laugh!!

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Old 09 January 2012, 19:16   #75
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Better yet invite a mate along on their boat and have your own Seastart/RNLI boat and a laugh!!

Chris[/QUOTE]

Its saved me more than a few times. Always good to have a second boat out and a second opinion when things aren't going well. Its not always possible but good when the opportunity presents itself...
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Old 09 January 2012, 19:20   #76
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D class now are around £12,000,
i know the atlantic 75 relief boat Phil that you had for a couple of months at your station cost £65.000 in 1999.

one thing is they now recon that the Tamar and new shannon class hulls are now expected to last the RNLI around 55 years unlike the past boats that were replaced at around 25 years ,they will be re engined perhaps 3 times in that lifespan .

suppose that will take them up to the time when the massive Euro -coast guard (bit like the usa style coastguard )will take over all things search and rescue in western europe with the main base in Holland .

with regards to the beach lifeguards when it was set up the deal was that the local councils would proviode the lifeguards wages and the rnli would provide the training and kit .
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Old 10 January 2012, 02:56   #77
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This topic sure has been an eye opener (post #52 in particular). It gives the impression that the RNLI is not so much (as the public generally sees it) a charity full of volunteers doing a heroic job but a publically funded and very healthy commercial business with an emphasis on supplying lucrative supply, manufacture and maintainance contracts. Similar to many other public sector set-ups. As was also mentioned in post #52 I can fully understand why there is a waiting list to become crew with all the benefits it brings.

Having said that it must be remembered that the guys at the sharp end have no say in how it is run and being out there risking all they continue to have my utmost respect.
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Old 10 January 2012, 03:46   #78
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I have an annual maintenance budget for each of the tugs i look after of less than £75000 and im talking £8million pounds worth of tug, classed for oil pollutiion recovery and fire fighting (to FiFi 2 standards) working 24hs, 365 days a year, regulary tasked by the MCA as emergency towing vessels) and thje RNLI justify upto £114K for a boat which probably only racks up a couple hundred running hours per year?(
Simon, are you comparing apples with apples there? As far as I know most AWBs have a full time paid mechanic (who is not just looking after the boat but the boat house and various other related stuff). [I've no idea whether this is a necessity to have the boats immediately ready etc]. Does your maintainence budget include staff to do the work? A cursory glance at the RNLI accounts suggests they aren't accounting for those staff anywhere else so are presumably part of the budget? AWB "operational maintainence budget" may also include all the kit for the crew on that boat such as lifejackets, foul weather gear etc - possibly launch tractors etc too. It still sounds like quite a lot to me and I'm sure as John suggests its a self fulfilling prophecy, which if they had to change they could without noticeable effects on service delivery in the short to medium term. Certainly for that money someone needs to be taking a look at whether we need all those AWBs with the type of shout they usually get these days, and the increased use of Helo's for significantly offshore stuff etc, as well as the increased range and capability of the Atlantic 85s over the original 21s.
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Old 10 January 2012, 05:23   #79
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Simon, are you comparing apples with apples there? As far as I know most AWBs have a full time paid mechanic (who is not just looking after the boat but the boat house and various other related stuff). [I've no idea whether this is a necessity to have the boats immediately ready etc]. Does your maintainence budget include staff to do the work? A cursory glance at the RNLI accounts suggests they aren't accounting for those staff anywhere else so are presumably part of the budget? AWB "operational maintainence budget" may also include all the kit for the crew on that boat such as lifejackets, foul weather gear etc - possibly launch tractors etc too. It still sounds like quite a lot to me and I'm sure as John suggests its a self fulfilling prophecy, which if they had to change they could without noticeable effects on service delivery in the short to medium term. Certainly for that money someone needs to be taking a look at whether we need all those AWBs with the type of shout they usually get these days, and the increased use of Helo's for significantly offshore stuff etc, as well as the increased range and capability of the Atlantic 85s over the original 21s.

'Morning Polwart...

True my maintenance budget's do not include costings for the engineers to carry out any work as this comes under a seperate crewing budget but never the less the figures do not add up.

I work within a couple hundred meters of the Calshot ALB down on the Solent and can safely say that the ALB probably doesnt go out more than 6 times a month if that. Most calls are dealt with by the Hamble inshore (independant) lifeboat and ocassionally the Calshot's little 'D' class.
Now based on the RNLI website link, the two lifeboats at Calshot will have a combined maintenance budget of say 80-90k.
Assuming there is a full time paid engineer based at Calshot (i dont think there is but we will assume anyway) earning circa 30K p/a then what does he do to earn his keep and what is the other 50-60k per year spent on?

Put, it this way, this is what i would expect to spend if the vessel was being looked after by a private sector company.

--Lifejacket and survival suit inspection/servicing 2000 p/y
--cost of slipping and antifouling (if this is to be done anually??) 4000 p/y
--Engine/gearbox/crane maintenance and minor repairs including filters oils etc.. 1400 p/y
--Servicing of liferaft 2000 p/y
--Radio/navionics/pyrotechnics survey/service/replacment 1000 p/y
--Misc and annual 'set aside' for long term maintence ie: turbo overhauls, engine/gearbox rebuilds and unforseen failures 6000 p/y

Total 16400k per year plus cost of 1 engineer at 30000k (although the cost of the engineer would be split between the budget's of several lifeboats so in reality it would be more like 5000k per year)

21400k per year for the ALB and say 3000k per year for the 'D' class giving a total of 24400k

As you and JK say, it would seem to have become a self fulfilling prophecy indeed.

Simon
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Old 10 January 2012, 06:33   #80
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And aren't we all lucky it's funded voluntarily! Because the RNLI has this huge emotional appeal it means that we have a superb maritime rescue setup which isn't subject to government cuts.

I still don't think it's the best use for so much money though, which is why I choose to support other charities instead. I haven't seen the current marketing campaign (not being a member ) but it does seem to be missing the mark. On the other hand providing it brings in more extra money than it loses it will probably be judged as a success.
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