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Old 28 March 2011, 09:42   #21
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Originally Posted by Channel Ribs View Post
I read 36.6kn 16 2011-03-28 06:40
I was just checking and got the same answer.

Looks like an almost "crash stop" shortly after 06.40 with some time then spent re-tracing her tracks.
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Old 28 March 2011, 10:40   #22
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Yep, you guys are right. I'd been overzoomed and was looking at their return speed to the crash site. They are cavalier after all!
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Old 28 March 2011, 12:13   #23
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Hi Erin

Cavallier? (Dont worry, i realise it was tongue in cheek)

To be fair, i can vouch for the professionalism of those involved and understand the pressures and distractions that they have to deal with. I say this not because i'm generalising about overall standards of officers in the MN, but because i know a good percentage of the officers involved in this particular case.

It will be easy to critisise them for not slowing down further (if it was really 36knts) but i would urge people to not cast dispertions of reclessness as, i can quite confidently say, that that would not have been the case.

Extra look-outs would have been brought up onto the bridge, both Master and Chief Officer would have been scrutinizing the radar screens, the fog horn would have been set to auto (admitedly not doing much good if she was at 36knts) and generally the mood on the bridge would of been one of concentration.

Sadly going back to my previous posts, commercial pressure plays a HUGE part in a Master's decision to choose to slow down or not. Yes, if she was at 36knts then it would seem obvious to most as being an unacceptable speed in fog however, when both your Radar sets pick up no targets then sadly, due to previously mentioned pressures you make choices which you may have not normally made.

Pressure needs to be applied from the Government to the shipping companies in order to force a change of attitude towards maintaining a shedule at all costs, even at the cost of safety. (although shipping companies always deny this, especially some of the less reputable ones)




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Old 28 March 2011, 12:49   #24
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Anchorhandler ... surely the people with greatest potential to change that issue are actually the MN officers themselves, for speed to be a contributing factor (if it was) they are complicit by paying attention to the company's pressures.
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Old 28 March 2011, 13:10   #25
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Polwart

As the son of a Master of Northern Ireland Ferries until his retirement I can totally disagree with you. I don't care to mention how many times I had to hear my father rant about the shore offices and accountants. They do not care that the MN officers put their careers at risk on every crossing only about time tables and earnings. According to the accountants the boats don't make any money only the sales offices do!!!

If the officers don't ensure the timetables they lose their jobs anyway.

Rant over but the shipping companies bear 99% of the blame in all these incidents.

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Old 28 March 2011, 14:29   #26
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Rant over but the shipping companies bear 99% of the blame in all these incidents.
If they are running an organisation with a culture like that it is only a matter of time before they end up with a corporate manslaughter charge. Of course their safety management system will say the master is in charge of such decisions which is why I think it is not reason.able to say the guy on the bridge is almost blameless (talking generally here as I don't know any real details of this case). Collectively the masters could force change but even an individual could make a difference if he were prepared to put safety before his own career. A sacked master is a terrible liability for any future corporate manslaughter case.
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Old 28 March 2011, 14:48   #27
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Anchorhandler ... surely the people with greatest potential to change that issue are actually the MN officers themselves, for speed to be a contributing factor (if it was) they are complicit by paying attention to the company's pressures.
'evening Polwart

Sadly it's a case of 'not biting the hand that feeds' for most officers and crews involved in the ferry trade.
If a Master slows down or refuses to sail due to weather conditions then the ships phone will be ringing nearly immediately with someone from 'operations' looking for a justifiable explanation. Now bearing in mind that the Master bears ultimate responsibility for the vessel and has the final say then in theory that should be the end of the story.
Unfortunately Masters are made very much aware of the cost implications should a ferry miss or delay a sailing and although a more senior, experienced Master may have the conviction to stand his ground, many others feel under pressure to perform.
Most on here will have felt a certain nervousness and increased sense of responibility when taking a group of friends out on their ribs, especially at night time or in poor weather conditions well spare a thought for the Masters of ferries (including and perhaps especially high speed ferries) who have the responsibility for not only the crew but potentially several thousand passengers also. In my 22 years serving on ships as diverse as oil tankers, ferries, anchorhandlers and now a more office based position I can safely say that I have come across very few who could be considered reckless or unprofessional.

Luckily, the MCA are very much aware of the main Offenders amongst shipping companies and keep a close eye on them..

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Old 28 March 2011, 15:31   #28
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Its the same in any industry, buggered if you do, buggered if you don't!
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Old 28 March 2011, 15:55   #29
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Its the same in any industry, buggered if you do, buggered if you don't!


Just ask any long distance lorry driver about pressures applied to get the job done quicker.


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Old 28 March 2011, 16:06   #30
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No doubt ,commercial pressures or otherwise it will be all down the very basics of seamanship ,
safe speed and failure to keep a proper look out ?

having said that at this stage we dont know the full story and reasons or actions from either party .
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Old 28 March 2011, 16:23   #31
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unfortunately one dead according to this-

http://www.channelonline.tv/channelo....asp?ID=493614

cheers
I'm just out of the shot of the ALB, quite a sight watching a Tamar steaming through the pierheads at WOT
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Old 28 March 2011, 16:36   #32
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36.5 knots in 20m viz is taking the p!ss no matter how good your radar is
This seems to be quite preposterous .. is this common practice for these ferries in those conditions ?
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Old 28 March 2011, 16:40   #33
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Just ask any long distance lorry driver about pressures applied to get the job done quicker.


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Originally Posted by m chappelow View Post
No doubt ,commercial pressures or otherwise it will be all down the very basics of seamanship ,
safe speed and failure to keep a proper look out ?

having said that at this stage we dont know the full story and reasons or actions from either party .

We get it all the time, can you do this please, if you say no the gaffer will say I'll just pop outside so he doesn't see you do it.
Alot of jobs that you can't get a permit for easily get done on nightshift, under the cover of darkness. The darkness makes it safe!
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Old 28 March 2011, 16:49   #34
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as said we don't know the facts but its not the first accident with these hi speed vessels. Its not just that they do the same speed whatever the viz and rely on radar (hence why I keep going on about radar reflectors) but also their wash which has caused fatalities in the past at different locations. A triumph of commercial gain over sea safety.
The irpcs says we should take into account visibility, density of traffic, manoueverability, background lights at night, weather/wind/waves,and draught of the vessel. How that is achieved at 30 odd knots in basically nil viz, or indeed by hi speed ferries careering down Southampton water in the dark I cannot see, and its only a matter of time there. But we dont know the facts of this one.
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Old 28 March 2011, 17:46   #35
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Sadly it's a case of 'not biting the hand that feeds' for most officers and crews involved in the ferry trade.
i woz ownly obayin awders

dats wot thay sed att de noorenberg wor tryals.

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Old 29 March 2011, 03:14   #36
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36.5 knots in 20m viz is taking the p!ss no matter how good your radar is
In all fairness, in 20m viz it probably doesn't matter what speed the Vitesse was doing. The bridge is probably more than 20m aft of the bow, the Captain won't have even been able to see the front of his own boat, let alone another vessel some metres forward of it and some 10 metres below.
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Old 29 March 2011, 03:16   #37
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In all fairness, in 20m viz it probably doesn't matter what speed the Vitesse was doing. The bridge is probably more than 20m aft of the bow, the Captain won't have even been able to see the front of his own boat, let alone another vessel some metres forward of it and some 10 metres below.
Also we don't know what the visibility was south of the accident, nor at the time just prior.
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Old 29 March 2011, 03:39   #38
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reading through these posts a thought occurred to me, it doesn't matter what speed he was doing or what the viz was like, he has no excuse for running down a fishing boat, i come from a fishing family here in the solent, the ferries get as close as they can to you, they do it on purpose, almost like a game
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Old 29 March 2011, 04:08   #39
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Originally Posted by Erin View Post
In all fairness, in 20m viz it probably doesn't matter what speed the Vitesse was doing. The bridge is probably more than 20m aft of the bow, the Captain won't have even been able to see the front of his own boat, let alone another vessel some metres forward of it and some 10 metres below.

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Part B - Steering and sailing
Section I (for any visibility)
4. Application
The rules apply in any visibility (e.g. in sight or in restricted visibility).
5. Look-out
Every vessel must at all times keep a proper look-out by sight (day shape or lights by eyes or visual aids), hearing (sound signal or Marine VHF radio) and all available means (e.g. Radar, ARPA, AIS, GMDSS...) in order to make a full assessment of the situation and risk of collision.
6. Safe speed
Any vessel must proceed at a safe speed at which she can to take action to avoid collision and be able to stop within a distance suitable to the prevailing conditions. These conditions include the visibility; traffic density; her manoeuvrability (e.g. stopping distance and turning ability); background lights on shore, dazzle and backscatter from her own lights; the state of the wind, sea, current and nearly hazards; and draft in relation to the available water.
When radar is in use also consider: limitations of the equipment; range scale in use; sea-state, weather and other interference; possible weak targets; the number of targets and their movement; that the use of radar may help to judge the visibility.[4]
7. Risk of Collision
Vessels must use all available means to determine the risk of a collision, including the use of radar (if available) to get early warning of the risk of collision by radar plotting or equivalent systematic observation of detected objects. (e.g. ARPA, AIS).
If the distance of any vessel is reducing and her compass bearing is not changing much or it is a large vessel or towing vessel at close distance, or if there is any doubt, then a risk of collision shall be deemed to exist.
seems obvious to me?
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Old 29 March 2011, 04:12   #40
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reading through these posts a thought occurred to me, it doesn't matter what speed he was doing or what the viz was like, he has no excuse for running down a fishing boat, i come from a fishing family here in the solent, the ferries get as close as they can to you, they do it on purpose, almost like a game

Yeah Ok i'l bite.....

So what your saying is the ferries deliberately leave the channel/shipping lanes risking potential grounding to 'play' with the fisherman?.....or is it maybe a case of the fishermen laying pots and trawling in the shipping lanes because they know theres is a better chance of a good catch?...hmmm interesting one.

Simon
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