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Old 01 April 2011, 12:35   #101
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previous incident with a ferry report. Apologies if someone has already posted it. The comment at the bottom is quiet interesting.

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Old 01 April 2011, 13:45   #102
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Safe Speed is not defined, should it be ?? I think probably not when you look at the rules above and the requirements laid down for assessing 'safe speed'.

Within the rules it is clear to see they are outdated and need reviewing for modern vessel use. not more than 2 min intervals for power driven vessels.
The COLREGS don't say it in as many words, but I want to sound my fog horn as frequently as my speed and the vis dictate. If I can see yay-far and am going to cover that distance in less than 2 mins I need to change something.
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Old 01 April 2011, 14:12   #103
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Some more info in today, press have spoken to survivors. They were pulling a string of pots at the time, doing about 4 kts as they hauled.
The Vitesse suddenly loomed out of the fog, hit them in the bow.
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Old 01 April 2011, 15:29   #104
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Pride of Bilbao/Ouzo

I'm sure that I read somewhere that the Ouzo had been found and raised??
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Old 01 April 2011, 15:33   #105
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Quote:
Safe speed
Well quite simply I suppose it can't have been if it ended up killing someone.
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Old 02 April 2011, 18:08   #106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Channel Ribs View Post
The COLREGS don't say it in as many words, but I want to sound my fog horn as frequently as my speed and the vis dictate. If I can see yay-far and am going to cover that distance in less than 2 mins I need to change something.
But you can. The rules say not greater than 2 mins. You are allowed to sound your horn more frequently. I don't think the rules need changing, they just need reading properly. (not suggesting anyone on here is incompetent). I was told when I was at sea that the rules are written in such a way that they mean the same in every language they are translated into. Apparently, this is not an easy thing to do.

I also remember days of dense fog, when one couldn't see the foc's'le from the bridge. Watchkeeping outside on the bridge wings, lookouts right for'ard, the old man or the mate with his head glued to the radar, fog signal on auto every two minutes. Engine ready to manoeuvre and at half ahead (circa 10 knts). If we heard another fog signal we answered immediately. If it appeared to be forward of the beam we slowed down further. As the other vessel got nearer the frequency of whistle blasts increased and our speed was slowed.

I can remember the beautiful lilac colour of a Union Castle steamer materialise out of the greyness as I pulled the engine telegraph to full astern. He must have done the same, for we stopped less than a cable apart. Our VHF, the size of a two drawer filing cabinet, finally warmed up and we called - but no response.

Both ships backed off slightly, each turned to starboard and I watched as the other ship vanished into the greyness. I learned a lot on that watch.

That was in the western approaches when I was a cadet, learning my craft and art by soaking up the experience of sea time. In four years, six months college time was all that was thought necessary to consolidate that experience of a very practical, hands on occupation. I understand now that three years is spent in college and only one year spent at sea. That lack of experience, it seems, is showing these days.

Shipping companies are run by accountants, ships by mariners. No accountant would have ever dared to tell the masters of ships I sailed in to hurry up and to hell with the fog. The master would not be fired because any replacement would do the same.

Now it seems, learning seamanship is an academic exercise, punctuated by the odd cruise. No wonder they can't tell the accountants to sod off.

Lubricated rant over - back to retirement.
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Old 03 April 2011, 01:27   #107
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Quote:
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But you can. The rules say not greater than 2 mins. You are allowed to sound your horn more frequently. I don't think the rules need changing, they just need reading properly.
Yes, what I was trying to say... If my speed and visibility are not compatible with the fog signal interval then I either need to change my speed or the interval, or most likely both.
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Old 03 April 2011, 03:23   #108
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Shipping companies are run by accountants, ships by mariners. No accountant would have ever dared to tell the masters of ships I sailed in to hurry up and to hell with the fog. The master would not be fired because any replacement would do the same.
Fortunately there are still a few small companies that have Masters as the directors.

I have had the pleasure of working for one such for sometime where I consider the 'boss' to be a friend also. I guess he trusts my decision making skills enough to command his vessel!

He has also (along with his business partner) stood by me over a safety issue involving the charterer and supported me and the crew 110% in the matter.

Indeed the more I think about a recent change of direction the more I think I made a mistake and should have carried on working freelance for him...

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Old 03 April 2011, 13:07   #109
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A lot of people are quoting portions Colregs. Unfortunately by doing this they are missing out information. the colregs should be taken as a complete document and not just bits and pieces. THe definitions and specifications of a fog horn cover the distance over which the horn should be heard. and this is where the timings come from. many small vessels rely on a manually operated horn often a small aerosol type which is unlikely to be heard over the perscribed distance.
to me, The col regs are a very well written document ehich should alway followed by all what ever type of vessel large or small, and if they are there should never be a collision. End of story!!!!
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Old 03 April 2011, 14:13   #110
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Range of signal

Well for the condor the minimum range is 1.5 miles for larger vessels (>200m) 2 miles, these ranges are for the direction of maximum intensity. At 36 knots the vessel sounds it horn and waits 2 minutes to sound the horn again as it is on an automatic setting.
In this time the vessel will have travelled 1.2 miles.

Hypothetically then, if the signal was made at a range of 1.7 miles from you in your rib and you did not hear it, you may then hear the next signal at a range of 0.5 miles this now gives you about 60 seconds to act on hearing the fog signal for possibly the first time.

Carriage of AIS is mandatory for certain vessels yet the colregs do not include the use of AIS or VHF for collision avoidance. Reading many MAIB reports and it becomes clear that these tools are frequently used by many seafarers for this exact purpose??
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Old 03 April 2011, 15:07   #111
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[QUOTE=karlT;395258] Well for the condor the minimum range is 1.5 miles for larger vessels (>200m) 2 miles, these ranges are for the direction of maximum intensity. At 36 knots the vessel sounds it horn and waits 2 minutes to sound the horn again as it is on an automatic setting.
In this time the vessel will have travelled 1.2 miles.

Hypothetically then, if the signal was made at a range of 1.7 miles from you in your rib and you did not hear it, you may then hear the next signal at a range of 0.5 miles this now gives you about 60 seconds to act on hearing the fog signal for possibly the first time.

Carriage of AIS is mandatory for certain vessels yet the colregs do not include the use of AIS or VHF for collision avoidance. Reading many MAIB reports and it becomes clear that these tools are frequently used by many seafarers for this exact purpose?? [/QUOT


AIS and VHF are used as a last ditch attempt to avoid a collision as they havent followed the Col regs, ie altering course early and substancially, or slowing down in reduced visibility
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Old 03 April 2011, 17:23   #112
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Channel Ribs View Post
Yes, what I was trying to say... If my speed and visibility are not compatible with the fog signal interval then I either need to change my speed or the interval, or most likely both.
Ah! Yes. Apologies. Perhaps a little less of the tincture would have allowed me to read and understand your post properly.
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Old 03 April 2011, 17:25   #113
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SDGANDER View Post
Fortunately there are still a few small companies that have Masters as the directors.

I have had the pleasure of working for one such for sometime where I consider the 'boss' to be a friend also. I guess he trusts my decision making skills enough to command his vessel!

He has also (along with his business partner) stood by me over a safety issue involving the charterer and supported me and the crew 110% in the matter.

Indeed the more I think about a recent change of direction the more I think I made a mistake and should have carried on working freelance for him...

SDG
Wow. I think you were working for a gem.
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Old 04 April 2011, 02:23   #114
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Wow. I think you were working for a gem.
Yes I was - hence my now having doubts about the change...

SDG.
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Old 19 October 2011, 09:34   #115
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The report from the French Marine AIB is now in:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Local News

Condor officers failed to spot a fishing boat on their radar before a fatal collision in March.

A report by French Marine Accident Investigators says they were having a 'trivial conversation' minutes before the accident

The Vitesse struck the whelk trawler while enroute from Jersey to St Malo in thick fog on 28th March - killing 42 year old skipper Philippe Lesaulnier.

Investigators say the ship's crew weren't talking about keeping watch, despite the poor visibility.

Transcripts show 12 minutes before the impact the master had said he'd slept badly the night before after watching the film Catwoman.

Radar pictures show the trawler on the ship's radar, and the report says the chief officer should have been able to detect it with ten minutes notice.

The report concludes a lack of attention, as well as the weather and the ferry's speed, contributed to the accident.

The Bureau's report is to avoid future similar accidents, not to apportion criminal responsibility. French prosectors will decide if there'll be any further action.

Executive Summary:
CONDOR.VITESSE sailed from Saint-Malo in thick fog conditions; the fog horn had been inactivated very early and the visual lookout had not been strengthened. The speed had progressively reached 37 knots.
In the wheelhouse almost continuous talks without any link with the watchkeeping,
maintained an atmosphere not compatible with the necessary concentration to conduct a HSC in the fog.
This behavior, as well as the visibility are the causal factors of the accident.
When CONDOR.VITESSE approached the Minquiers waters, both officers did not detect
2 vessel echoes ahead on starboard, the first was a ship that would be passing at a hundred of meters on starboard, the second was LES.MARQUISES.
The potter was fishing, with her radar on, without emitting any sound signals. A hand
saw the HSC at the last moment but too late to alert the skipper. The collision cut the fishing
vessel in two parts, while on board the HSC there was a leak in the starboard bow compartment.
The aft part of the potter kept afloat for a time, allowing the two hands to stay on it
until they have been rescued by the HSC crew. The skipper had been found afloat unconscious.
It has been certified that he was dead.
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Old 19 October 2011, 12:56   #116
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Sounds like a case of complacency and total lack of regard for other users of the sea.
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Old 20 October 2011, 02:43   #117
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Full report here:
http://www.beamer-france.org/BanqueDocument/pdf_289.pdf

Scroll down to half way for the English version
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Old 20 October 2011, 03:21   #118
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Quote:
Sounds like a case of complacency and total lack of regard for other users of the sea
and commercial interests over safety and seamanship and any regard whatsoever for others. High speed ferries make some swathes of sea an unsafe are for many smaller vessels.
Might is right versus "safe speed"
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Old 20 October 2011, 04:54   #119
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Bottom line of all this stems to the very basic rules of seamanship

keeping to a safe speed for the given conditions or failure to keep a proper lookout from both partys .

as a matter of intrest does say a fishing/work boat or any other type of boat where All the crew are involved with working /hauling nets/ pots or broken down engine and the crew are below trying to fix it ect ,ie no one at the wheel or on offical look out is this then classed as,,,,( Vessle not under command ).
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Old 20 October 2011, 11:17   #120
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collision regs
an unhampered power vessel should be giving way to a fishing vessel showing fishing dayshapes.
safe speed criteria includes visibility

but our hi speed ferries used to career on in whatever the vis relying solely on radar.
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