Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
 
Old 06 September 2011, 05:31   #1
Member
 
HUMBER P4VWL's Avatar
 
Country: UK - Wales
Town: N Wales Chester
Boat name: Mr Smith
Make: Humber
Length: 6m +
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 5,238
Anyone ever witnessed a handle or cleat being pulled off?

Another thread is debating the social rudeness/rightness of tying/rafting up to a rubber glued on cleat/handle. I understand the fear, but is it based on fact or not.

Has anyone actually had one pulled off? and what were the forces involved?
__________________

__________________
HUMBER P4VWL is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06 September 2011, 05:56   #2
Member
 
Country: UK - England
Town: Southampton
Make: Ballistic
Length: 7m +
Engine: Yam 225
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 1,003
i use mine for springs, have done for a year, and not had a problem bow and stern line go to eye bolts.
__________________

__________________
Starovich is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06 September 2011, 06:24   #3
Member
 
ribraff's Avatar
 
Country: UK - England
Town: Dartmouth
Length: 6m +
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 1,218
I've seen them rip through the upright of the handle before pulling the whole handle off , i've never seen a problem with tying on to the cleats to be honest.
__________________
Hypalon Tubes built in-house,retubing, repairs, Accessories
www.ribtube.co.uk
ribraff is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06 September 2011, 06:26   #4
Member
 
Pikey Dave's Avatar
 
Country: UK - England
Town: South Yorks
Boat name: Black Pig
Make: Ribcraft
Length: 5m +
Engine: DF140a
MMSI: 235111389
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 9,869
RIBase
I've had a grab line pulled off, admittedly not by rafting up (it caught on the trailer when we were launching) But it cost me £100 quid to get it repaired. I'd prefer to tie off to the "A" frame & use the painter in anything but flat calm water. I wouldn't dream of pulling up alongside someone & tying onto a "soft" bit.
__________________
Rule#2: Never argue with an idiot. He'll drag you down to his level & then beat you with experience.
Rule#3: Tha' can't educate pork.
Rule#4:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=unkIVvjZc9Y
Pikey Dave is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06 September 2011, 08:53   #5
Member
 
Country: UK - Scotland
Boat name: Wildheart
Make: Humber/Delta Seasafe
Length: 5m +
Engine: Merc 60 Clamshell
MMSI: 235068449
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 4,650
The original Humber applied "D" strake on mine (25 YO) can if the boat is tied alongside in a marina too close and someone steps aboard support the hull on the pontoon using the rubbing strake, and judging by the gouges & missing lumps I'd guess the glue is waaay stronger than the rubber......



Most Avon redstart/crest cleat failures I've seen form towing have been the cleat itself disintegrating.
__________________
9D280 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06 September 2011, 09:01   #6
Member
 
HUMBER P4VWL's Avatar
 
Country: UK - Wales
Town: N Wales Chester
Boat name: Mr Smith
Make: Humber
Length: 6m +
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 5,238
It would appear then that the rubber fitting will break before the glue, hypalon or where the hypalon is attached. That then indicates it would require some v serious forces to do damage. So it would be very unlikely that an average sized rib (6.5m say) would not do any damage to another if it tied on to the rubber cleats, unless it was blowing a gale and or a big swell was slamming the boats around.

So whilst yachties are happy for others to moor alongside and use eachothers deck cleats, are some ribnetters being a little oversensitive about their precious boats in some circumstances? (obvious stupidity re size of boat, conditions of weather and tide excluded)
__________________
HUMBER P4VWL is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06 September 2011, 09:30   #7
Member
 
Pikey Dave's Avatar
 
Country: UK - England
Town: South Yorks
Boat name: Black Pig
Make: Ribcraft
Length: 5m +
Engine: DF140a
MMSI: 235111389
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 9,869
RIBase
Quote:
Originally Posted by HUMBER P4VWL View Post
So it would be very unlikely that an average sized rib (6.5m say) would not do any damage to another if it tied on to the rubber cleats, unless it was blowing a gale and or a big swell was slamming the boats around.
Is this what I think you meant to say, or is it what you thought you'd said
__________________
Rule#2: Never argue with an idiot. He'll drag you down to his level & then beat you with experience.
Rule#3: Tha' can't educate pork.
Rule#4:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=unkIVvjZc9Y
Pikey Dave is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06 September 2011, 09:41   #8
Member
 
TonyC's Avatar
 
Country: UK - Wales
Make: XS // Delta
Length: 6m +
Engine: 60hp // 2x90hp
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 213
I'll echo other comments here in that while i've never seen a cleat pulled off, i've seen quite a few broken cleats, and also quite a few broekn lifeline 'holders'.

i always teach people that for anything but temporary 'holding on', you should used main anchor points in the boat.
__________________
TonyC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06 September 2011, 10:10   #9
Member
 
Country: UK - England
Town: Dorset & Hants
Boat name: Streaker/Orange
Make: Avon/Ribcraft
Length: 4m +
Engine: 50Yam/25 Mariner
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 5,551
I have seen a handle rip a tube - it was during a tow of a broken down ski boat by a rib. A jerk in the line (and driving the towing boat ) due to a too quick take off, was followed by a loud 'RIP' and then the steady hiss no one wants to hear.

I have to say it was one hell of jerk. Really one of those moments of thinking ' this isn't going to be good' but knowing there is nothing you can do about it...

I have had the local rowing clud try to tie back moorings to the handles on my tubes. I was not impressed at all - a few choice words were used explaining the pull of 4 other moorings all to my tubes was not on
__________________
PeterM is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06 September 2011, 17:39   #10
Member
 
Doug Stormforce's Avatar
 
Country: UK - England
Town: Southampton
Boat name: Yoda & Obi Wan
Make: Valiant 750 & XS600
Length: 7m +
Engine: 150, 115 HP
MMSI: Various
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 1,031
I have seen several handle/cleats pulled of. Each has happened bit by bit.

The ones that most come to mind were on a couple of Ribtecs I worked with about 15 yrs ago, also seen it on Tornados i also used to work with and Seariders i also used to work with.

Funnily enough at both organisations where this happened i remember arguing with other staff that they should not use these handles to secure the boat to or tow from. Seems in the end they insisted on proving me right.

The above is in now way a slur on either of the brands in question, but on the lazy arse sloppy seamanship of some of the staff i had the misfortune to work with.

I have also had the port life line of my old Ribtec pulled off when someone in Cowes hung a 6.5m Scorpion off it in Cowes.

I have seen the paddle holders which are made of the same moulded plastic/rubber come of RIBs tubes were presumably they have stuck on with the same glue as the cleats and as described above i have seen the handles torn.

All in all these fittings are not designed for load and anyone who wants to look after his boat will take the common advice not to load them rather than take the attitude "Well it was OK last time" Yes they will survive for some time but one day you will realise why everyone told you not to tie to them

Likewise my valiant (which i bought second hand) has always been missing one of the handles since i bough it- I don't know however how it came off.
__________________
STORMFORCE COACHING
web - www.stormforce.biz
email - coaching@stormforce.biz
tel - 02380 231122
Doug Stormforce is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08 September 2011, 10:09   #11
Member
 
Country: USA
Town: Oakland CA
Length: 3m +
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 6,653
Sort of off-topic: I've seen a cleat pulled out of a hard boat who tried to head to sea without loosing a dock line. Pretty impressive, as half tore out of the fiberglass, and the other snapped the mounting hardware. The cleat was propelled over and onto the finger dock with enough force to leave a decent dent in the planking. Luckily nobody got hit.

jky
__________________
jyasaki is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08 September 2011, 12:57   #12
Member
 
Ian M's Avatar
 
Country: UK - England
Town: New Milton
Boat name: Jianna
Make: Osprey
Length: 6m +
Engine: 200 E-TEC
MMSI: 235076954
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 1,940
No-one will tie off to my rubber cleats, I haven't got any, hate the damn things. I think it comes from 'rubber cleat enemas' from dive RIBs where they have been strategically placed to do the most damage
However, I sympathise with the OP, and anyone who ties off to my lifelines had better be prepared for a mid-night visit
__________________
Ian

Dust creation specialist
Ian M is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08 September 2011, 13:06   #13
Member
 
Country: USA
Town: Seattle
Boat name: Water Dog
Make: Polaris
Length: 4m +
Engine: Yamaha 60hp
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 1,152
I have no moulded cleats. My grab lines are attached to stainless D-rings which are held onto the hypalon with nylon/polyester/polypro (not sure?) webbing and a patch. I tie off to those in good conditions, they seem to be holding up fine.
__________________
captnjack is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08 September 2011, 16:06   #14
Member
 
Country: UK - England
Boat name: Hornet
Make: Humber
Length: 5m +
Engine: O/B 90hp
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 202
cleat

Quote:
Originally Posted by HUMBER P4VWL View Post
Another thread is debating the social rudeness/rightness of tying/rafting up to a rubber glued on cleat/handle. I understand the fear, but is it based on fact or not.

Has anyone actually had one pulled off? and what were the forces involved?
Once saw a 65ft Princess try to leave Torquay marina with port stern line still attached but under water.

The skipper throttled gently ahead and the thick line appeared, tightened and halted all progress. The skipper gunned the twin engines and the boat lunged its stbd quarter into the boat adjacent. Undeterred and somewhat mystified, he gave it some serious wellie. By this stage, one could have played Stairway to Heaven on the stern line. The harbour master and onlookers had by now given up trying to warn the skipper over the roar of the engines and were instead taking cover. The skipper's elderly father, transfixed on the rear deck, had also failed to alert his son. Suddenly the huge cast cleat on the pontoon snapped off its base and shot straight up in air, to the full extend of the line, then crashed unto the deck, inches from the skipper's old man. The skipper was blissfully unaware of the near miss as he was now otherwise engaged, frantically trying to reduce the sudden found forward acceleration.
__________________
Firefly is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08 September 2011, 17:22   #15
Member
 
Country: USA
Town: Seattle
Boat name: Water Dog
Make: Polaris
Length: 4m +
Engine: Yamaha 60hp
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 1,152
Quote:
Originally Posted by Firefly View Post
Once saw a 65ft Princess try to leave Torquay marina with port stern line still attached but under water.

The skipper throttled gently ahead and the thick line appeared, tightened and halted all progress. The skipper gunned the twin engines and the boat lunged its stbd quarter into the boat adjacent. Undeterred and somewhat mystified, he gave it some serious wellie. By this stage, one could have played Stairway to Heaven on the stern line. The harbour master and onlookers had by now given up trying to warn the skipper over the roar of the engines and were instead taking cover. The skipper's elderly father, transfixed on the rear deck, had also failed to alert his son. Suddenly the huge cast cleat on the pontoon snapped off its base and shot straight up in air, to the full extend of the line, then crashed unto the deck, inches from the skipper's old man. The skipper was blissfully unaware of the near miss as he was now otherwise engaged, frantically trying to reduce the sudden found forward acceleration.
Please god let this be on youtube somewhere
__________________
captnjack is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08 September 2011, 17:30   #16
Member
 
Country: Other
Town: Stanley, Falkland Is
Boat name: Seawolf
Make: Osprey Vipermax 5.8
Length: 5m +
Engine: Etec 150
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 3,712
Quote:
Originally Posted by captnjack View Post
Please god let this be on youtube somewhere
I was thinking the same

So what we have established so far is that tying up to hardpoints is bloody dangerous and prone to end in tears, while nobody has ever torn a cleat off a tube in normal use so this should be the preferred method

Ah my coat, I wondered where I had put it
__________________
A Boat is a hole in the water, surrounded by fibreglass, into which you throw money...

Sent from my Computer, using a keyboard and mouse
BogMonster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09 September 2011, 03:02   #17
Member
 
HUMBER P4VWL's Avatar
 
Country: UK - Wales
Town: N Wales Chester
Boat name: Mr Smith
Make: Humber
Length: 6m +
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 5,238
I think you're right bogmonster.

Yes, rubber mounted cleats can break, but we knew that in the ultimate scenario anyway.

I suppose we learned that it's the rubber that breaks, not the glue or hypalon, unless either were v old.

It would appear also that prolonged regular use will make them ultimately fail, but that's a bit like the first point again.

I'd maintain my view that in a calm marina and your boat is not enoooormous, tying off to a couple rubber cleats alongside, (with a fender out if your rib colour is different, that's another debate ) would be acceptable...........

....... unless it is one of the people on here who will take great offence and view you to have vandalised their boat and you will find your own boat on return tied to 10 other boats with Granny knots and padlocks just to make their point!
__________________
HUMBER P4VWL is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09 September 2011, 05:15   #18
Member
 
Country: Other
Town: Stanley, Falkland Is
Boat name: Seawolf
Make: Osprey Vipermax 5.8
Length: 5m +
Engine: Etec 150
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 3,712
I'll be fine, they'd struggle to find 10 other boats around here
__________________
A Boat is a hole in the water, surrounded by fibreglass, into which you throw money...

Sent from my Computer, using a keyboard and mouse
BogMonster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09 September 2011, 08:55   #19
Member
 
Pikey Dave's Avatar
 
Country: UK - England
Town: South Yorks
Boat name: Black Pig
Make: Ribcraft
Length: 5m +
Engine: DF140a
MMSI: 235111389
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 9,869
RIBase
Quote:
Originally Posted by BogMonster View Post
I'll be fine, they'd struggle to find 10 other boats around here
Not floating ones anyway
__________________
Rule#2: Never argue with an idiot. He'll drag you down to his level & then beat you with experience.
Rule#3: Tha' can't educate pork.
Rule#4:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=unkIVvjZc9Y
Pikey Dave is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09 September 2011, 09:11   #20
Member
 
Pikey Dave's Avatar
 
Country: UK - England
Town: South Yorks
Boat name: Black Pig
Make: Ribcraft
Length: 5m +
Engine: DF140a
MMSI: 235111389
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 9,869
RIBase
Personally, I think the principle goes deeper than tying off to someones rubber cleats, it's the lack of respect for other peoples property. It's the tw4t that opens his car door onto yours in the supermarket car park, or lobs his fag packet out of the car window. It's dis-courteous & bad manners. I can see very few situations where it's necessary to tie off onto a "soft" cleat, where with a little more thought & application you could make off "fast". On top of that, I wouldn't want to tie off my boat to something that might or might not give way depending on how old, perished, glued, it is. If I'm tying off & leaving the boat unattended, I want to be sure the bugger's there when I get back. I'm paranoid enough without relying on somebodies dodgy soft bits.

Just my 2 penneth
__________________
Rule#2: Never argue with an idiot. He'll drag you down to his level & then beat you with experience.
Rule#3: Tha' can't educate pork.
Rule#4:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=unkIVvjZc9Y
Pikey Dave is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off




All times are GMT -5. The time now is 12:57.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.