Commercial Endorsements - Incorrect Medical Certs - Insurance implications

[alant1]

For a Commercial Endorsements, the MCA require an ENG1 medical certificate, if you are licenced to operate 60 Nm+ from a safe haven - such as anyone with an RYA YM Offshore or above. Even if only operating close inshore, for these certificates, this ENG1 is mandatory.

Many people only have an MLN 5 medical certificate, which may not be correct. Failure not to have the correct medical certificate, could render any insurance invalid.

[Doug Stormforce]

alant1

I raised this withthe RYA some time ago, they are happy to accept the ML5. I dont think the insurance company can argue with what the national governing body advise.

Having said that It seems to me that the ENG1 is a better medical anyway, its cheaper, can be done by any MCA Doc, covers you for all areas and is better value for money.

[alant1]

Doug,
The RYA are happy to keep this under wraps.
At the end of the day, they simply interpret MCA Rules & want an easy life.

I got myself a Boatmaster Licence last year & the MCA examiner, was adamant that ML5 was not acceptable, so had to get an ENG1.

The UKSA (bless 'em), insist that their fast track guys, "qualified" to STCW 95, get ENG1 medicals, otherwise as so called professionals, they 'aint properly commercially endorsed.

The MCA, obviously do not police their rules sufficiently & their attitude when approached, is to deal with it when a problem/incident/accident occurs.

eg under MCA manning regs, a 'commercial vessel' operating 150 Nm+, should have a YM Ocean Skipper + YM Offshore mate.
How many British flagged 'charter' vessels doing the ARC have this manning requirement?
How many french yachts being delivered from St Giles to the Caribbean, have this manning requirement.
How many RIBS on skippered charter in the Solent, have a skipper with a commercial endorsement to his RIB ticket, instead relying upon his YM sail ticket?
What is the point of these rules if they are being flouted, both by users & MCA?

[donutsina911]

Whilst getting the RIB Cat 4 coded and local authority licensed, the MCA and Portsmouth Port Authority both confirmed that an ML5 is acceptable earlier this month??

[Tideway]

Originally Posted by donutsina911

Whilst getting the RIB Cat 4 coded and local authority licensed, the MCA and Portsmouth Port Authority both confirmed that an ML5 is acceptable earlier this month??

Given the general confusion, was this in writing? Just a thought...

t

[Andy Gee]

Originally Posted by alant1

Doug,
I got myself a Boatmaster Licence last year & the MCA examiner, was adamant that ML5 was not acceptable, so had to get an ENG1.

A Boatmasters is a totally different Licence the the commercially endorsed RYA ones hence the requirement for ENG1, where as the RYA and MCA will accept the ML5 or an HGV/PSV, Commercial Pilots or Commercial Divers. The MCA require a higher medical due the number of passengers and the size of vessel that you are licenced to operate, a bit of difference between 12+2 (or whatever it is know in the MGN280) and over 220+4 that certin types of Boatmasters cover.

Originally Posted by alant1

What is the point of these rules if they are being flouted, both by users & MCA?

Ho hum we've been going on about it for years, unlicensed boat, unlicensed operators, operating outside limits/restrictions. To be fair to the MCA they have recently became more pro-active, up here anyway, in their policing and surveying of SCV codes.
It was said when the codes were introduced that they would "shake the monkeys out the tree", it may be that they have realised that the tree needs a little shake to get them all out .
Andy

[alant1]

Andy,
Its not just a Boatmaster requirement.

The MCA classify it as 'at sea', which means any seafarer working commercially (ie for wages or gain) operating or potentially operating
60 Nm +. This covers YM Offshore & YM Ocean tickets.

In the case of a Boatmaster licence, even though only able to operate 3 Nm offshore, the fact that this covered the Poole area, Dancing Ledge to the Needles, this was 'at sea' (as distinct from the Solent which are C & D waters).

Any licence which allows the individual to operate only within the 60 Nm limit (Coastal Skipper) will not require an ENG1. RIB Cat 4 will come in this category.

[Andy Gee]

Originally Posted by alant1

Andy,
The MCA classify it as 'at sea', which means any seafarer working commercially (ie for wages or gain) operating or potentially operating
60 Nm +. This covers YM Offshore & YM Ocean tickets.

Your right, I was only thinking of < 60 miles.

Originally Posted by alant1

In the case of a Boatmaster licence, even though only able to operate 3 Nm offshore, the fact that this covered the Poole area, Dancing Ledge to the Needles, this was 'at sea' (as distinct from the Solent which are C & D waters).

Boatmaster Grade 1 and 2 allow operation up to 60 miles from a safehaven only on a vessel Under the SCV code. This is what a number of skippers up here use. I dont know Poole but we have both cat C and D waters with changing limits (summer/Winter) and to sea. The larger (+15 total) boats also have varying plying limits depending on time of year and the ratio between passengers and crew.

Originally Posted by alant1

Any licence which allows the individual to operate only within the 60 Nm limit (Coastal Skipper) will not require an ENG1. RIB Cat 4 will come in this category.

I have to travel around 45 miles each way to get to a MCA Doctor, cost wise it's cheaper the an HGV medical from my local doc .
I think that any insurance company would fight a claim if the vessel was on charter and under manned, regardless of what the RYA say. It's certinally a bit of a grey area.
Andy

[Doug Stormforce]

Originally Posted by alant1

The UKSA (bless 'em), insist that their fast track guys, "qualified" to STCW 95, get ENG1 medicals, otherwise as so called professionals, they 'aint properly commercially endorsed.

I thought the discussion was RYA not STCW

Originally Posted by alant1

The MCA, obviously do not police their rules sufficiently & their attitude when approached, is to deal with it when a problem/incident/accident occurs.

I dont agree, the MCA spend a lot of time policing our waters, I have had a number of random stops and follow up enquiries to check paperwork.

Originally Posted by alant1

eg under MCA manning regs, a 'commercial vessel' operating 150 Nm+, should have a YM Ocean Skipper + YM Offshore mate.
How many British flagged 'charter' vessels doing the ARC have this manning requirement?

Wrong, you are not required to follow the code if you are racing or making your way to and from the start and finish of the race

Originally Posted by alant1

How many french yachts being delivered from St Giles to the Caribbean, have this manning requirement.

Not sure if this is relevent, French yachts I would guess are subject to their own requiremnets not the MCA

Originally Posted by alant1

How many RIBS on skippered charter in the Solent, have a skipper with a commercial endorsement to his RIB ticket, instead relying upon his YM sail ticket?

Again I dont know the answer to this but I work with a large number of RIB skippers and they are all qualified, I suppose its a bit like unlicensed taxi drivers, they will always be there, until they are caught, however the number of cowboys is fairly low.

Originally Posted by alant1

What is the point of these rules if they are being flouted, both by users & MCA?

I think rules will always be broken by a minority, however this does not justify having no rules

[alant1]

"I thought the discussion was RYA not STCW"

As part of their STCW 95 courses, they obtain a commercial endorsement as YM Offshore/Ocean. They do not use medical MN5 route which the RYA favour, but insist correctly on ENG1.
__________________________________________________ _____________
"I dont agree, the MCA spend a lot of time policing our waters, I have had a number of random stops and follow up enquiries to check paperwork."

You are unusual I would suggest.
Our waters maybe, but they do have a responsibility for British Flagged vessels anywhere. Discussions I've had with the MCA resulted in comments that they have limited resources for policing & seemed to rely upon the threat invalidity of any Insurance to do their work.
__________________________________________________ ______________

"Wrong, you are not required to follow the code if you are racing or making your way to and from the start and finish of the race."

Agreed, only if the following are satisfied -

28. Vessels Operating under Race Rules

28.1 A coded vessel chartered or operated commercially, for the purpose of racing need not comply with the provisions of the Code whilst racing, or whilst in passage directly to or from a race, provided that the vessel complies with the following:-

1. It complies with the racing rule provisions of either the International Sailing Federation (ISAF) or the Union Internationale Motonautique (UIM).
2. It complies with the racing rule provisions of the affiliated Member National Authority, of either the ISAF or UIM, in the country where the race takes place.
3. It complies with the safety rule provisions of the race Organising Authority affiliated to the Member National Authority and thereby recognised by the ISAF or UIM to organise races in the country where the race takes place.
4. If it is a yacht racing offshore, it complies with the appropriate parts of the ISAF Offshore Racing Committee’s special regulations or the similar requirements of the affiliated race Organising Authority.
5. When on charter and in passage in any Area Category to and from the race, the race or equivalent safety cover shall be in force, or the vessel is to be in its coded condition for the passage.
- do the ARC boats comply with these rules?

__________________________________________________ ______________
"Not sure if this is relevent, French yachts I would guess are subject to their own requiremnets not the MCA"

Many, if not most will be British Flagged, joining Flotilla fleets!
Remember the boat lost a few Decembers ago with the sad loss if the skipper. He was YM Offshore doing a paid delivery.
__________________________________________________ ______________
"Again I dont know the answer to this but I work with a large number of RIB skippers and they are all qualified,"

Hopefully, this is the case & I'm sure you check their quals if working for you. It may only be an admin technicality, but how many are working without a comm end to their specific RIB ticket?
__________________________________________________ _______________
"I think rules will always be broken by a minority, however this does not justify having no rules"

Agreed, I was not advocating having no rules, quite the reverse.
Yes, these are broken by a minority - deliberately, by some - unknowingly, others - out of ignorance, but of much more concern enforced by regulating bodies -MCA - down to the RYA when it suits them to do so.
eg If the MCA regs state ENG1, then ENG1 should apply.
It makes a mockery of those who have spent time, effort, money, obtaining any qualifications, not to have enforcement.

[Jimbo]

There is another advantage to the ENG1. My local doc wanted £175 for an ML5 Ticket, and having had one appointment with him, needed me to go back. Just got off the phone from an MCA approved doc in Portsmouth, booked for the 17th, only £63.

[Gray]

Originally Posted by Jimbo

There is another advantage to the ENG1. My local doc wanted £175 for an ML5 Ticket, and having had one appointment with him, needed me to go back. Just got off the phone from an MCA approved doc in Portsmouth, booked for the 17th, only £63.

Not sure if this has been mentioned but i think im right when i say there is a fixed price for the ENG1, set by the MCA, but Doctors can charge what they like for the ML5.

[wavelength]

lucky with my ML5 s then - he charged me a fiver for mine, daughter got hers free as poor student whilst my other half went a few months later and got charged £25. Depends here if the practise manager gets to see it methinks.