Coding a boat

[dgpw]

Hi all Could anyone help me with the requirements for a boat to become cat B rather than cat c. Is this even possible for an open rib. Would really appreciate the rules / regs. the boat is 7.8 m with twin 175's just interested at the moment if it is possible.

Thanks

DGPW

[crazyhorse]

This is going to be a long drawn out saga,are you sure you want the imfo as it will take a lot of time.

And if you are genuinly wanting to go down this route then I will help,but it will hurt my brain and will cost you a lot of time.

[dgpw]

Is the information not posted to a web site some where then. I was hoping someone would say here is the address go and have a look. I have not found it anywhere. Would it be better to sent the question to the MCA and see what their reply is. Is it even possible to get an open rib coded to cat b or higher.

[crazyhorse]

yes it is posted i will get you the address but it isnt that simple.

Either Mca coding or rcd wich is it to be.?

[dgpw]

MCA. The boat if coded to this level would be used for Skippered Charter further afield than the 3 miles from land that is allowed today. If you could get the web address I will plug through the data and just ask for the bits I don't understand. The problem I foresee is that the boat is open is this the case. I understand that the MCA guidelines are to be changed in the near future will it get even more stringent. Sorry to ask so many questions

thanks for the help

[crazyhorse]

to start out look at see http://www.dti.gov.uk/strd/recreat.htm

Good luck

[crazyhorse]

yes it will get even more stringent but I think you could get maybe 20 miles offshore with a open boat. MCA Link to follow.

[crazyhorse]

see http://www.mcga.gov.uk/ its changing as we speak into one Workboat code,law in aprill aprox this yr

[dgpw]

This is interesting, I think! I have not come across any mention of RIB's yet are we classed as powerboats. If so that is not fair as we don't sink and they do Well not usually anyway.

Thanks for the links I now have plenty of bed time / bored at work reading

[crazyhorse]

Ribs as far as regs for stability go are now classed as power craft and are judged on the stability standared of iso 12217.

Weather it be work boat or recreational boat.

[Richard B]

dgpw, have you seen the article on Paul Glatzel's site http://www.powerboat-training.co.uk/...%20charter.htm - although I guess that if the rules are in the process of changing, this may become "background reading" rather than reference?

[Phill]

MCA codes are a bit of a disaster and weren't very well thought out. It is very hard/impossible to carry all the required kit and anyone (like the coxswain) in anything under 8ish metres. The codes are changing, as are the MCA's boats - cos when they brought the codes out they discovered that all the Coastguard boats were uncodable! (They're now going for Halmatic 10m cabin ribs). I think one of your main problems is going to be lack of "suitable" crew cover, i.e. a cabin. The main ofiice at Spring Place, Southampton should be able to help - but good luck.

[crazyhorse]

its a nightmare out there. In conformatie world.

[Phill]

Understatement Crazyhorse.

[crazyhorse]

Phill and dgpw I may be able to help a bit better in the next wk or so,I will update you on the position.

Onto something new thats interesting,will keep you informed.

[dgpw]

Sounds interesting thanks allot

DGPW

[Paul Glatzel]

DGPW

A good place to start is the article Pepper refers to at
http://www.powerboat-training.co.uk/...%20charter.htm or further down in this forum from last year.

The subject of the changes to MCA coding arose at the RYA Powerboat Principals conference at the back end of last year as there was a talk from one of the MCA coding specialists. If anything my interpretation was that coding would actually get a bit simpler for those of us coding RIBs. The MCA admitted that by developing so many disparate code books they had overly confused matters. Their intention is to create one central code with then appendixes addressing the various specialisms:

- workboat
- charter type vessels
- safety boats (eg RNLI/MCA) type stuff

Equally RIBs weren’t quite as prevalent when the codes were written so forthcoming revisions should better address their existence

They also intended simplifying things like the requirement that we service liferafts annually whereas the manufacturers are happy with 5 yearly intervals.

Its not difficult to code a boat unless you try to do it on your own with no one to advise you. I spent ages trying to get my mind round the required freeboard height at the transom (30cm) to find that in spite of my boat having less the surveyor never gave it a second thought – had I had someone to tell me not to concern myself with some areas then things would have been simpler.

You will easily be able to code to Cat 4 (20 miles from a safe haven in favourable weather & daylight) and cat 3 is very achievable even without a cabin. I know of a 5.6m Avon (like one of mine) coded to cat 3 (same as cat 4 but any weather any time). The pain is that you need to create a stainless type structure with protection.

One thing not required yet is for everyone to have a seat (other than a tube) however something the chap said implied this would be required which frankly seems sensible.

If you do want to chat about coding just email me and we can catch up

Paul

PS: I disagree that the existing Coastguard boats were uncodable as there the same as mine and mine passed. That said a cabin Halmatic is a far more sensible option for cat 3 coding which presumably is essential for the MCA. Equally coding lots of little boats is far more expensive than coding fewer bigger ones

[crazyhorse]

Well this is good news for us needing codeing.

Paul Thanks for your post.

Im aware That the Mca are working on there 4th amendment and bringing together all the different coloured codes into one document at the moment,up to two weeks ago that was happening.

For rcd accreditation an offshore cat B ce marked rib has to have stability tests done based on iso 12217 at present.
A cat C ce marked boat does not require these and can be self certified by the builders.So as to comply with recreational craft directive but isnt designed to operate in anything more than a f6 and is designed for coastal /inland waters.

Is it correct that your saying that an open rib that has a cat C ce mark will be able to get cat 3 workboat code easily. withought stability tests but with a canopy on it.

A coded work boat does not require stability tests for up to Code 3 range at present, will this stay as it is in your oppinion?.

A New lesure boat with a cat B offshore does!.

The Avon model you have is it a commercial rib? or a recreational rib?.
I would presume most people who want commercial codeing will have ce marked boats or older ones that are ex lesure or work/Rescue boats and maybe dont have codeing books.But would like to do some charter,therefore if you dont require stability calculations and a notified body seal of approval then forCat 3 up to 20 miles offshore then that is acceptable and the MCA have agreed it then for all of us, or could it be the area your likley to be operating in? see link cat abc waters English channel

http://www.ceproof.com/channel_conditions.htm

I heard a story about somebody with a open rib wanting codeing and was given 20 miles but only four 4 people.His boat could take 12 on the builders plate.The Avon 5.6 with the cat 3 code how many people can it take out?

I am working very closely with RCD consultantats and the MCA at the moment as we are going for 60 miles from a safe haven in our specifications,So your answeres are of great interest to me and them.

A comment today from our consultants was good news for cat C ribs,In that for a cat c rib,force 6 and 2 mtr swell.The whole of the English channel is below those conditions so you can cruise accros in your cat C rib in , responsibe wether conditions.No more worrying about the insurance implications.So im told today?

Im actually wondering wethere this is how your mate and yourself have got your Avons through with no problems,If its being used in cat C waters then there shouldt be a problem as it isnt ruff as far as the MCA catergory waters are defined.Just Mi thinking out loud and indeed I hope this to be the case.

The good bit of news will come when I have verified some other imformation,It will be of interest as I have the feeling we have maybe over specked our boat as we have complied with everything there was and could ever be,and know it could be the rules may be reduced!.
It would off saved me a lot of money if they are being downgraded, but I suppose It wouldnt be as good a boat.
Thats what I will sell myself on if indeed the rules are being less strict for MCA boats,no such luck for RCD I expect,but will report.


On the freebord height the rules are at present for RCD.
The requirment for a cat B rcd boat is actualy mimimum floor height is aprox 4 inches or 100ml for cat B and 6 inches for cat A, i.e this is the minimum height of the floor from to the water line . This is for a fully decked boat. Fueld up with max crew and is based on Iso 12217

The freeboard for RCD is not mesured to the top of the tubes this is usualy known as the downflooding angle or at the top of the transome which ever comes first for RCD.

Paul Unfortunatly I also have to disagree with you on your comment that the existing Mca Boats were codable for there intended use, as they were clearly not as they needed a range of 30 miles.The new cabin ribs have a operating ranges of 30 miles from a safe haven .

There New Halmatick ribs are opperational up to 30 miles offshore.The MCA surveyors told me last wk unless this has changed.

On the statement on cost of codeing.RCD is a one off charge for all of the same models.
MCA codeing is charged on each boat coded.Every time even for the same model.

But it may be different in the next few wks as I will get accurate clarification on this from the experts and if changes are afoot which i believe maybe for ribs under 8mtrs? I might be able to clarifie things better for everybody as the way it was is a nightmare.

I have to employed the RCD/ MCA consultant as these issues are real tecknical, and they are paid to bring me up to scratch on any changes on RCD and MCA before our build starts ,so they are liable if they are not accurate, so if you have any specific questions on this paticular subject then please post on this thread as this is the only way otheres can see whats going on , and indeed if we give incorect advice bye accident it could lead somebody to makeing the wrong decisions. If we all personaly email each other then nobody learns anything on the forum.In fact all us new boys on the block learn nothing from you Dabb hands.
Thanks for your time on this and I look forward to your responce on this thread with interest.

PS i have done my best to be accurate on this subject,if I have made errors,I appologise as its very tecknical

Crazyhorse

[crazyhorse]

Update on imformation,

It evidently has been a concern over whos liable from a work boat manufacturers point of view that they may have a liability when a work boat is used for recreational purposes!.They hve been advised that they should make sure the boat is stamped up as a work boat when sold,so to limit the warrantie,so be carfull when buying a work boat in the future if you intend to use it in a recreational roll as you may have to have it retested.

It also seems that there are not at present any stability standards as in ISO 11217 for work boats coded ribs?

But only for recreational boats cat B that are being used offshore?Cat B.Im talking ribs under 12 mtr boats here.

Dont think its a quick fix is for a builder to produce a work boat that can then go offshore for personel use as it will say on the builders invoice its a work boat,and the insurance people will want the imfo and you could own a rib that can only legaly be insured for Inland coastal f6 conditions?When being used for recreational use as it doesnt pass Recreational Craft Directives for cat B stability.

So in conclusion to my other posts 1x dont buy a large work rib as you may need to go through all the rcd and stability tests for offshore use should you want to use it recreationaly.

2x the work code is a compleatly different beast to RCD and in my oppinion it is far less up to date than than RCD for recreational craft as it seems that there are no stability Tests or notified body involvments for a work boats under 12 mtrs.!

And therefore there is no need for a present work boat to have gz curves and downflooding angles,although there is a healing test,Damage test,boyancie test and freebord test and loads of other stuff for lifting devices that make it very dificult to get a decent range from a small rib/boat and you cant use it potentially for recreational use unless it is CE marked unless built before 1998.

3x advice on getting it coded.This in my opinion should be done now as there is the ongoing discussions as to when the Stability test will be introduced for work boats ,and all this is happening as we speake, and untill I get more imformation I dont know when it will be happening or come into force.So make hay while you can,and get a duel passport?
Im presuming one day it will of just of happend,I Will up date you as soon as Im aware.or imformed of that date.This is a mine field at present,with Harmonisation of codes ect.

The bottomline is that if you have a recreational rib with a cat B sticker on it you have a real chance of doing offhore work boat stuff in the future as it has already been stability standard tested so it may be a lot easier and cheaper to get MCA codeing as it conformes to existing stability criteria iso 12217 if the rib is over 8 mtrs.

If you own a work boat designed and billed as a work boat and want to use it recreationaly then you may have problems.

That is my spin on this one today.As its changing all the time.

Its a nightmare all this stuff and m brain hurts
Good luck all of you.
.

[dgpw]

Interesting. Thanks crazyhorse this is very usefull. I will read it slowly and try to get my head around it. will prob just about understand it when the changes come in.

thanks again