This country getting worse

codprawn · 15 March 2006, 19:27

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/4809946.stm

Just read this - remember the incident well - a prisoner disembowelled his cell mate with a razorblade and a spoon.

Now obviously this is not a very nice thing to do - the poor prisoner was in there for a minor offence I believe. What must his poor family be going through? So who gets the compensation???

The prison officers of course - all 6 of them share £1million for the "trauma" they suffered!!! Their lives will never be the same again bla blah blah!!!

Makes me sick - what if every Fireman or Ambulance worker were to claim the same when they attend a traffic accident? What about a fireman who carries a burnt baby out of a block of flats?

Then of course what about soldiers who see mates legs blown off or people's heads coming off?

Not nice - of course not - worth £1million of tax payers money???

Biggles · 15 March 2006, 19:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by codprawn

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/4809946.stm

Just read this - remember the incident well - a prisoner disembowelled his cell mate with a razorblade and a spoon.

Now obviously this is not a very nice thing to do - the poor prisoner was in there for a minor offence I believe. What must his poor family be going through? So who gets the compensation???

The prison officers of course - all 6 of them share £1million for the "trauma" they suffered!!! Their lives will never be the same again bla blah blah!!!

Makes me sick - what if every Fireman or Ambulance worker were to claim the same when they attend a traffic accident? What about a fireman who carries a burnt baby out of a block of flats?

Then of course what about soldiers who see mates legs blown off or people's heads coming off?

Not nice - of course not - worth £1million of tax payers money???

Blame the Lawyers. they perpetuate this and get a bloody good living out of it.

And guess what we end up paying for it.

Ever wondered why the infrastructure of this country is so shabby. The money is going on the feckless and shameless.

ian parkes · 15 March 2006, 19:39

Definatly not right .
Mind you if the prisoner had carried out his disgusting deed in the name of his religion we would have had to respect him .

As my mate says this country is "Feet Up Ass"

Andy Stevens · 15 March 2006, 20:57

Stop the bus, i wanna get off!

Nos4r2 · 16 March 2006, 21:07

I'm normally as left-wing as Thatcher but in all honesty I don't have a major problem with this. A sight like that IS going to affect someone to the point where they may well be unable to work.

Would you be able to go back into your home if someone you knew had been butchered like that in there? I'm not sure that I would. Most people these days spend as much time at work as at home...

pressman · 16 March 2006, 21:15

As previously said where do you stop, ambulance, firemen. I have picked up bodies from the water, some you could have needed a fishing net. But you accept you are in a job where things like this may happen.

Simon B · 16 March 2006, 21:29

So lets get this straight, if you have a country and the guy at the top is happy to be line up cronies for jobs, run lean on on kit for an army that cant afford to fight and then appears to be generally wrecking his governments chances of staying power just to spite his mate who wants to take over then is it not surprising that anyone below this virtuous example of greed isnt tainted?

Like a lot people I'm a socialist at heart and a capitalist in mind, but recent events make my stomach churn.

The girlfriend is a chef at our local nick, its more like a holiday camp, Argos deliveries, hot baguettes, carpetted cells (if you are a listener) etc. thats ok if it is balanced with equal provision for the victim, sadly it is not.

codprawn · 16 March 2006, 21:51

Just remember not EVERYONE in Prison should be there!!! South Wales Police in particular seem to think a result must always be found - even if it isn't the right one!!!

Been a few cases lately where people have spent years in prison for murders they most definitely didn't commit!!!

And I am NOT on about the cases where people were guilty as sin but evidence was lacking.

There was even a bloke sent to prison for "nicking" golfballs - he was diving in a lake and recovering the balls which were effectively as lost as it is possible to be!!!

codprawn · 16 March 2006, 21:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nos4r2

I'm normally as left-wing as Thatcher but in all honesty I don't have a major problem with this. A sight like that IS going to affect someone to the point where they may well be unable to work.

Would you be able to go back into your home if someone you knew had been butchered like that in there? I'm not sure that I would. Most people these days spend as much time at work as at home...

As pressman says - where do you draw the line? Coppers/prison officers/nurses/doctors/firemen/soldiers etc etc MUST accept that their jobs can be unpleasant at times - if they don't then LEAVE - it is their choice!!!

codprawn · 16 March 2006, 22:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by codprawn

Just remember not EVERYONE in Prison should be there!!! South Wales Police in particular seem to think a result must always be found - even if it isn't the right one!!!

Been a few cases lately where people have spent years in prison for murders they most definitely didn't commit!!!

And I am NOT on about the cases where people were guilty as sin but evidence was lacking.

There was even a bloke sent to prison for "nicking" golfballs - he was diving in a lake and recovering the balls which were effectively as lost as it is possible to be!!!

And not everyone OUT of Prison should be either!!!

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/4813624.stm

Just seen this - poor copper decided to get his brother - another copper - to torch his car as he couldn't afford to get the headgasket fixed.....

Biggles · 16 March 2006, 22:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nos4r2

I'm normally as left-wing as Thatcher but in all honesty I don't have a major problem with this. A sight like that IS going to affect someone to the point where they may well be unable to work.

Would you be able to go back into your home if someone you knew had been butchered like that in there? I'm not sure that I would. Most people these days spend as much time at work as at home...

Sorry Matt,

Don't agree with you on this one. Its the nature of the beast. Similar to what i've had to deal with in the past and its part of the job.

The only reason I would claim is because everyone else is and they get away with it. So why shouldn't I. I've seen far too many cases of it recently.

But before I get blasted to bits on this forum, I have not made any claims nor do I intend to against the UK. Just wish everyone else felt the same.

Bigmuz7 · 16 March 2006, 22:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by codprawn

And not everyone OUT of Prison should be either!!!

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/4813624.stm

Just seen this - poor copper decided to get his brother - another copper - to torch his car as he couldn't afford to get the headgasket fixed.....

Yea... sad, no, complete shite... , this guys is one of only a few highly trained snipers/marksmen in his nicks region, highly trained... or what... and he goes and pulls a stunt like this.... and he gets community service, ripping off an insurance company for 4 grand, he's a flipping policeman !! Utter bollocks , supposedly trained to the hilt, and he walks off , no jail term like most others would have had....... A highly trained policeman ... just shows you

His kids wrote letters to the judge, apparantly. Nice stunt when you know the tricks of the trade eh?

Where is the justice

edit : OOps hadn't even read the link, but knew the detail anyway

Biggles · 16 March 2006, 23:01

Copper or not. I thought in this day and age you had to do something like sell Gollywogs to get arrested and treated like a heinous criminal.

Truth is very few people would have gone to jail for this.

This bloke will lose his job though. And you try and be an ex copper and get a job some where else with out getting punished for it.

He did a stupid and not understandable thing but by god will he suffer for it.

Your local Druggy wouldn't suffer the same though.

And who would you like in jail, given there only so many jail places just like hospital beds under your local labour government.... ?

And you have paid more tax than any citizen since the end of the second world war.

You paid it and got very little in return except a bunch of Labour luvvies.

Andy Stevens · 17 March 2006, 08:16

What i dont understand is this, I havent met a single person who has publically admited voting for Blair, so either i mix in the right circles or its a northern thing?

But then, would u admit it?

Lawrence · 17 March 2006, 09:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andy Stevens

What i dont understand is this, I havent met a single person who has publically admited voting for Blair, so either i mix in the right circles or its a northern thing?

I think it's more a combination of a Scottish/Welsh thing ( in England more people voted Tory than Labour) and that the in-built bias of the electoral boundaries means tiny inner city Labour constituencies return far more labour MPs than far larger Tory constituencies.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/nol/shared/vot...ml/england.stm

codprawn · 17 March 2006, 10:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lawrence

I think it's more a combination of a Scottish/Welsh thing ( in England more people voted Tory than Labour) and that the in-built bias of the electoral boundaries means tiny inner city Labour constituencies return far more labour MPs than far larger Tory constituencies.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/nol/shared/vot...ml/england.stm

Wales has too small a population to have much of an effect. Also I am in a similar situation - hardly know anyone who would vote for Blair.

I think it's mainly down to apathy and people's attitude of "He will get in anyway" - if all the people who didn't bother to vote HAD it would have made a hell of a difference!!!

BTW do people realise WHY he lets in so many immigrants? Because most of them vote Labour - never mind what it is doing to this country - as long as he gets his votes!!! Funnily enough his chum Bush is doing exactly the same!!!

Poly · 17 March 2006, 20:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andy Stevens

What i dont understand is this, I havent met a single person who has publically admited voting for Blair, so either i mix in the right circles or its a northern thing?

But then, would u admit it?

Sorry for being picky but - only 24,421 people voted for Tony Blair at the last election. They all live in the Sedgefield Constituency. They appointed him an MP, but as far as I am aware no one actually voted him as Prime Minister. The queen appoints him on the basis that he is the person most likely to command the support of a parliamentary majority.

Nate · 17 March 2006, 20:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Polwart

Sorry for being picky but - only 24,421 people voted for Tony Blair at the last election. They all live in the Sedgefield Constituency. They appointed him an MP, but as far as I am aware no one actually voted him as Prime Minister. The queen appoints him on the basis that he is the person most likely to command the support of a parliamentary majority.

I love to see a clever b*st*rd in action! Nice one matey!!

Couple of points on this - one of Codder's better "rage against the system" posts.

We incarcerate more people than just about any Western European county - even Turkey (and they're considered a bad lot). That said much of our treatment of inmates is "institutionally" unpleasant due to the historical legacy of British prisons, but not "deliberately" so. The major weakness we have, and the greatest point of difference between us and more enlightened systems, is that we have never (politically) been able to make the move from retribution to rehabilitation. This is largely down to the positive political regard given to any jumped up prat of a politician (you know who they are) who gives it large on the young offender drug dealing yardie shoplifting granny basher, and gets elected as a result. Problem is that the institutionalisation of said young offender drug etc. in no way dissuades him or her from reoffending. Studies in NI showed a strong correlation between increased severity of sentence and a reduced interval of reoffending - basically send a person into a hard prison for six months and they'll be at it again as soon as they come out, yet do more to prevent reoffending (psychotherapy, occupational training, cognitive behavioural therapy etc.) and the reoffending interval increases. Hard time is (a) not as hard as it sounds, but (b) is sufficient to confirm (in the individual's eyes) their status as a criminal whilst affording plenty of opportunities to develop interesting skills and attitudes from the rest of the prison population - a kind of University of Crime.

So, briefly, we have a prison system which is not sufficiently unpleasant to significantly deter reoffenders (retributative) neither is it tailored to address issues around preventing future offending (rehabilitative). The prison system does work well as a political football however, and we can rest assured that prison populations will continue to rise so long as there is some gain to be had from speaking loudly about it in the House of Commons.

Second point regards PTSD. This was only recently recognised as a true psychological condition, and it's diagnosis depends upon the individual meeting several strict criteria. That said, some interesting research pointed out that different people experiencing the same event will react diffferently.
There are some very telling attributes of personality that can, when the individual is exposed to a life threatening event, predicate an adverse reaction leading to PTSD; similarly there are also attributes that mean an individual will be largely devoid of abreaction. The most obvious attribute that protects an individual from a severe reaction is a hign scoring in psychopathy - so your basic serial killer will have little or no lasting psychological effects following the witnessing of a brutal murder for example.

This is one reason why lots of SAS blokes are, clinically, psychopaths and love their work while loads of coppers and squaddies (who are not) lose the plot following exposure to graphically gruesome deaths.

DM · 18 March 2006, 10:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nate

Second point regards PTSD.

Mmmm. PTSD. An interesting disorder. Can often be translated to SMAFCD otherwise known as Send me a f....g cheque disorder.

Quote:

Originally Posted by codprawn

where do you draw the line? Coppers/prison officers/nurses/doctors/firemen/soldiers etc etc MUST accept that their jobs can be unpleasant at times - if they don't then LEAVE - it is their choice!!!

Spot on!

DM

donutsina911 · 18 March 2006, 12:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nate

We incarcerate more people than just about any Western European county - even Turkey (and they're considered a bad lot). That said much of our treatment of inmates is "institutionally" unpleasant due to the historical legacy of British prisons, but not "deliberately" so. The major weakness we have, and the greatest point of difference between us and more enlightened systems, is that we have never (politically) been able to make the move from retribution to rehabilitation. This is largely down to the positive political regard given to any jumped up prat of a politician (you know who they are) who gives it large on the young offender drug dealing yardie shoplifting granny basher, and gets elected as a result. Problem is that the institutionalisation of said young offender drug etc. in no way dissuades him or her from reoffending. Studies in NI showed a strong correlation between increased severity of sentence and a reduced interval of reoffending - basically send a person into a hard prison for six months and they'll be at it again as soon as they come out, yet do more to prevent reoffending (psychotherapy, occupational training, cognitive behavioural therapy etc.) and the reoffending interval increases. Hard time is (a) not as hard as it sounds, but (b) is sufficient to confirm (in the individual's eyes) their status as a criminal whilst affording plenty of opportunities to develop interesting skills and attitudes from the rest of the prison population - a kind of .

call me old fashioned, a right wing prat (or just wrong) but I couldnt give a toss if criminals have a higher propensity to reoffend after a severe sentance - commit the crime, go to prison. Reoffend, go to prison again. Clearly this is an increasingly outdated point of view but just my tuppence worth.