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Old 03 September 2019, 02:22   #51
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Well mine is...

My understanding is that if the 60/40 was not truly representative of actual fuel usage, one should declare that and pay the appropriate duty...doesn't everyone do that? ....

No, most just accept the 60/40 percent on the South Coast as many of the fuel pumps have been set to that automatically. When the system first came in an attendant had to do a calculation and work it out for you. Now pumps are 24/7 and unmanned its take it or leave it. I suppose you could try claiming back the extra duty you paid on the propulsion part but used for heating and cooking, from HMRC. Of course you may have to prove a rib has a diesel cooker or generator.

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You aren't going to win the arguements on payment, because the EU has told them to sort it. Certainly if we no deal there *may* be a rethink on that. But it won't win the eco arguments, but if the government wanted to show how being out of the EU meant we were free to make our own decisions...

I wouldn't hold my breath.
Worth mentioning Michael Gove is keen environmentalist, no problem with that, but he is unlikely to fight the corner of big posh gin palaces (and private planes) having a tax cut from road fuel taxation rates.

Pete
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Old 03 September 2019, 02:52   #52
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No, most just accept the 60/40 percent on the South Coast as many of the fuel pumps have been set to that automatically. When the system first came in an attendant had to do a calculation and work it out for you. Now pumps are 24/7 and unmanned its take it or leave it. I suppose you could try claiming back the extra duty you paid on the propulsion part but used for heating and cooking, from HMRC. Of course you may have to prove a rib has a diesel cooker or generator.



Worth mentioning Michael Gove is keen environmentalist, no problem with that, but he is unlikely to fight the corner of big posh gin palaces (and private planes) having a tax cut from road fuel taxation rates.

Pete
Using a 60/40 split without actually using 40% for heating is technically illegal as far as the law is concerned However as hmrc don't want the hassle of collecting the tax & the revenue generated wouldnt cover the cost of policing no one realy cares hence the 60/40 becoming the norm.
I spoke to my fuel supplier a few days ago & his take is that the only enforcement that will be taken against anyone once/if white becomes the norm will be putting the onus on the supplier to not supply red fuel to pleasure boats. Clearly if there are no plans to check whats in vessel tanks then my guess is a lot of vessels will carry on using Red anyway
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Old 03 September 2019, 03:11   #53
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I spoke to my fuel supplier a few days ago & his take is that the only enforcement that will be taken against anyone once/if white becomes the norm will be putting the onus on the supplier to not supply red fuel to pleasure boats. Clearly if there are no plans to check whats in vessel tanks then my guess is a lot of vessels will carry on using Red anyway
How many red users are using red from a supplier who doesn't know where it is used? There may be a handful who get a delivery to home and transport it to the boat. But the practically is not great. And lots of the "can't use white" arguements are broken if you can bring red to the boat, you can bring white. So why am I paying tax on petrol but diesel owners are not?

If you are a quayside red supplier why would you risk fines for supplying red to pleasure craft on the dockside? The profit will be low. You may have a mate who turns a blind eye on the quay of your local harbour. But you need a network of mates for the big passages...

There won't be many quayside tanks dipped in the UK. Doesn't mean never. Either intelligence led. So if some officious (read: disgruntled petrol user) tax payer complains that XYZ harbour are supplying red to leisure, it would be fairly easy to make life misery for everyone in that harbour by dipping every non-commercial diesel... It would be difficult to justify not doing that.

Then for those who take their boats abroad - dipping does occur. Belgium are obsessed by it! We are about to enter a new world of less free / less easy movement. If countries want to make the point that once you leave the club you loose the rights of being in the club, they are likely to try and make themselves felt...

If it was as easy as the supplier turning a blind eye, I could drive to the garage that sells red at a pump and fill up my car and they would say "not their problem"...

...if I get stopped, then say I buy it from ABC garage - it will be their problem.
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Old 03 September 2019, 03:35   #54
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And lots of the "can't use white" arguements are broken if you can bring red to the boat, you can bring white. So why am I paying tax on petrol but diesel owners are not?
If they are buying it off a farmer then it's probably not legal and you have a fair point. If they are buying it from a marina then they are paying tax, a higher rate for propulsion and a lower rate as we do for diesel heating at a lower tax rate. I think the heating tax rate is about 5% similar to oil central heating for a house.

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Then for those who take their boats abroad - dipping does occur. Belgium are obsessed by it! We are about to enter a new world of less free / less easy movement. If countries want to make the point that once you leave the club you loose the rights of being in the club, they are likely to try and make themselves felt...
That would be a good reason to switch to white for boats which might cross to Europe at some point in the future. It is going to take a few tank fulls to clean out the red.

Interestingly my diesel rib ran better, cleaner and faster on French supermarket white diesel compared to UK red.

Pete
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Old 03 September 2019, 04:12   #55
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...most just accept the 60/40 percent on the South Coast as many of the fuel pumps have been set to that...
Pump, is that a south coast thing? ... It's usually just a tank plus gravity where I go boating.
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Old 03 September 2019, 05:04   #56
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Interestingly my diesel rib ran better, cleaner and faster on French supermarket white diesel compared to UK red.

Pete
I'm not surprised. I've seen the shit that gets pumped into red diesel, plus (certainly where I came from) it's unadditised.

When I used to drive the tankers that supplied it, we used the gas oil tanks in the yard as somewhere to dump all the kero/white/red/bio slops.
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Old 03 September 2019, 05:26   #57
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If they are buying it off a farmer then it's probably not legal and you have a fair point. If they are buying it from a marina then they are paying tax, a higher rate for propulsion and a lower rate as we do for diesel heating at a lower tax rate. I think the heating tax rate is about 5% similar to oil central heating for a house.
This is my point though...

In one breath we are told that it will be impossible to leave harbour because it only has a red pump and bringing white in by cans is just impossible. In the next we hear of someone who buys it from a farmer... So it's not impossible if it saves 40p a litre?
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Old 03 September 2019, 07:45   #58
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This is my point though...

In one breath we are told that it will be impossible to leave harbour because it only has a red pump and bringing white in by cans is just impossible. In the next we hear of someone who buys it from a farmer... So it's not impossible if it saves 40p a litre?
Who said it is impossible? having done the can thing, I would prefer not to.

Buying it from a farmer at a fraction of the price in a marina is understandable, but it isn't being taxed at the correct rate. At half the price morals could be overlooked by some folk.

Make it all white and those who have a legitimate reason to use lower taxation fuel claim the extra duty back. The onus is on them proving the need to HMRC by having a legit business etc.

Anyone want to buy 60L of red diesel going cheap in Gosport?

Pete
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Old 03 September 2019, 11:12   #59
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Who said it is impossible? having done the can thing, I would prefer not to.

Buying it from a farmer at a fraction of the price in a marina is understandable, but it isn't being taxed at the correct rate. At half the price morals could be overlooked by some folk.

Make it all white and those who have a legitimate reason to use lower taxation fuel claim the extra duty back. The onus is on them proving the need to HMRC by having a legit business etc.

Anyone want to buy 60L of red diesel going cheap in Gosport?

Pete
Making everyone else run on white and reclaim the duty is a massive undertaking & open to far greater fraud that what could possibly go on with the odd boater who fills up with red diesel. I think the level of tax evasion from people running red instead of white will depend largely what region you boat in and the ready availability of white fuel
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Old 03 September 2019, 11:21   #60
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Well since Craig says this will cost £200 more per fill, even if we assume he pays no duty currently (tut tut) - he is filling with 300litres. That is hard work by hand!... And in a remote port where the garage isn't close by probably impossible.

But if people are bringing red in for significant quantities they can do the same in white...
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