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Old 02 September 2019, 09:37   #41
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Important to note, please voice your concerns to the given email address.

The more ammo we throw at this guy hopefully they will see sense.

ONLY 1 WEEK LEFT to tell the HMRC what we think...
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Old 02 September 2019, 10:52   #42
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ONLY 1 WEEK LEFT to tell the HMRC what we think...
What are you going to tell them?
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Old 02 September 2019, 11:19   #43
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What are you going to tell them?

Gary Satchell
Excise & Environmental Taxes Policy Design Team
HM Revenue & Customs

I am really worried about the ramifications we will feel if the above proposal is implemented.

The severe increase in fuel costs will markedly reduce the use of personal craft which will reduce the income brought to Coastal and Island communities.

We may have an increase of £200 per tank.

Again I reiterate - This increase will have a reduction in use of boats and devastating effect tourism.

Power Boat production, something we are world leaders, will struggle to find a home market.

According to this directive, red diesel may only be used in the future for heating and must be stored in a separate tank to the white fuel which must be used for propulsion.

Will we require to take out the old fuel tanks which previously held red diesel, fit new untainted tanks. It will be uneconomical to fit separate tanks for our heaters so they will run on white fuel.
The cost and practicality of retro fitting a separate tank for propulsion diesel would be beyond most boat owners

We are now to comply with an EU directive as we leave the EU... This is why we are leaving.

Is it true, even though Brexit is looming, this directive and judgement can still be enforced by the government as part of a leaving agreement or, should Brexit not take place, would automatically be put in place to comply with the EU judgement.

I believe this duty increase will have a devastating impact on Scottish boating – the increase in fuel cost will impact on current boat owners, curtail the use of boats and therefore decrease the tourism spend in restaurants, bars and visitor attractions as boat use declines.

It will also have a catastrophic effect on this country’s marine tourism industry, an industry which is already struggling under spiralling costs.
The high cost to modify private boats to fit a completely separate fuel system to allow owners to run heating systems on red diesel means that it would not be worthwhile, and most marinas will supply only white diesel after implementation which leaves the issue of where to get red diesel in the first place.
The cost implication for marinas to install extra diesel tanks to supply both red and white diesel means that many, particularly in more remote areas of Scotland will only continue to sell red diesel to cater for commercial vessels thereby severely restricting the availability of white diesel for private boaters.
In 2016 the Scottish Marine Recreation and Tourism Survey estimated that marine recreation and tourism is worth £3.7 billion to the Scottish economy alone. This ruling is going to force boat owners to pay full duty and VAT on white diesel for both propulsion and heating and will be the beginning of the end for the industry and make the hobby completely unsustainable for people already struggling to fuel their vessels.
In light of the UK current situation and possibly heading towards a ‘No Deal Brexit’, we believe that the correct thing for the Government to do would be;

Set a date for implementation way beyond the intended departure date from the EU, and then completely abolish the plans to implement this decision on leaving the EU.

Perhaps go even further to stimulate the boating market upon leaving the EU and allow private pleasure boat users to go back to using red diesel at the commercial rate of duty for propulsion and promote sailing and motor boating and allow the industry to grow.
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Old 02 September 2019, 13:19   #44
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Craig_C, I'm not sure your £200 extra per tank is a valid argument in most cases. Presently leisure users are (should be) paying full duty plus vat, this will not change if the diesel we buy is white diesel. The cost will be the same. The only significant change is if a boat carries a heater, has a single fuel tank and some duty paid fuel is burned for heating.
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Old 02 September 2019, 13:46   #45
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IMPORTANT Diesel Tax changes for boaters!

Quote:
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Craig_C, I'm not sure your £200 extra per tank is a valid argument in most cases. Presently leisure users are (should be) paying full duty plus vat, this will not change if the diesel we buy is white diesel. The cost will be the same. The only significant change is if a boat carries a heater, has a single fuel tank and some duty paid fuel is burned for heating.


I’m sure most diesel ribs are fitted with Eberspacher heaters in the console to keep the electrics nice and warm thus allowing red at 60/40. Right?
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Old 02 September 2019, 13:55   #46
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""I'm sure there is a way for you to keep using red if you code, and invoice yourself for each trip.""

And of course, you will have to keep your APB commercial endorsement complete with medical certificate and renewable first aid certs up to date to skipper your own boat on these "commercial" trips.

I'm also guessing you've not been through the horrors and expense of Coding.
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Old 02 September 2019, 13:56   #47
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I’m sure most diesel ribs are fitted with Eberspacher heaters in the console to keep the electrics nice and warm thus allowing red at 60/40. Right?
Well mine is...

My understanding is that if the 60/40 was not truly representative of actual fuel usage, one should declare that and pay the appropriate duty...doesn't everyone do that? ....

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Old 02 September 2019, 14:41   #48
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I'm not sure Craig_c's argument is helpful. HMRC expects people to complain this will be more expensive.

£200 per fill up - not a typical user - even if you paying only £0.60p currently because you sourced completely untaxed, you could then source road white for £1.30, you are using close to 300 litres... That's not typical pleasure boating. That is pleasure boating for an elite few.

The arguements that I do think stand some chance are:

- availability of white on the quay side (and possibly pointing out that the cost of petrol quay side is disproportionately high compared to road)
- avoiding need to fully flush the system to become free from red
- the need for quayside fuel to turn over to keep fuel big down

You aren't going to win the arguements on payment, because the EU has told them to sort it. Certainly if we no deal there *may* be a rethink on that. But it won't win the eco arguments, but if the government wanted to show how being out of the EU meant we were free to make our own decisions...

I wouldn't hold my breath.
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Old 02 September 2019, 14:58   #49
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Quote:
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""I'm sure there is a way for you to keep using red if you code, and invoice yourself for each trip.""

And of course, you will have to keep your APB commercial endorsement complete with medical certificate and renewable first aid certs up to date to skipper your own boat on these "commercial" trips.

I'm also guessing you've not been through the horrors and expense of Coding.
Craig was asking a few weeks ago about the process, costs etc for coding. Still if he thinks he'll be spending an extra £200 per tank it could be worth it.
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Old 02 September 2019, 15:58   #50
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I think the argument has to go allong the lines of "when i take my usual months holiday around the north of scotland if I cant run on red & there is no available supply of white then I wont be able to safely get there with my tanks range. Therefore it will mean I wont be spending my usual £500per night on food and berthing etc in this rural area therefore depriving this area of much needed revenue. Alternatively I could chance getting there and back on my tanks range however Im not sure we could make it there and back safely therefore not being allowed to run on red is a possible safety concern."
The treasury realy dont care about what it costs the well healed boater but they may listen if its a safety concern or it financially affects a rural area that needs the income.
On the other hand the Scottish govt has climbed into bed with the green party so I doubt Wee Jimmy Cranky will be stepping forward to help out the owners of gas guzzling stink pots.
Being the owner of a boat that does 1.5mpg my thoughts are that if Brexit doesnt sort the red diesel thing we will just have to dig deeper ( or carry on cheating a little )
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