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Old 28 April 2008, 11:10   #1
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How high does the price of fuel have to go before...

...you consider giving up your RIB???

Over here, fuel at gas stations is sitting at $1.20 Cdn/litre. Marinas are typically .10 - .20 higher. I appreciate that we are getting a bargain compared to you guys in the UK.

Personally, the price would need to go much higher until I gave my boat up, but I am now looking seriously at a new-fangled engine...

I can't imagine that the high prices won't adversly effect sales of all power boats...
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Old 28 April 2008, 11:38   #2
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...you consider giving up your RIB???
Personally, the price would need to go much higher until I gave my boat up, but I am now looking seriously at a new-fangled engine...
One that runs on the wind

We are at £1.25 per litre for gasoline so that's about twice yours I think.

I think demand is pretty inelastic once you have bought the boat - I know I just don't (refuse to) think about it.

And anyway, for those of us on the Solent in the UK, the ferry across to the Isle of Wight is so expensive that a rib still looks cost effective (well that's my logic)

But it could be a consideration for the pre-sale decision. I was at fuel pontoon a couple of years back wanting to put 20 litres of diesel in. Queued up behind a very big motor yacht (prob 60-70') and they had two lines in and ran up over 6000 litres of diesel by the time they finished. Now that really did make me wince.
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Old 28 April 2008, 16:08   #3
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the way I view it is, I grudge every quid of fuel I sick in a car. I will not start listing the tax, the pot-holes, the congestion, the speed cam etc etc etc


however, I always find my self with a smile on my face when filling the RIB tanks. NO it is not the petrol vapours getting to me from the boot.

mind you the past week or so the guys beind where not smiling as I filled the rib tanks...... wonder why
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Old 28 April 2008, 17:34   #4
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If it carries on as it is now and hits the estimated £2 a litre then our boat will go for sure , and i will go back to a 4 stroke sib . Its not just running the boat its the 4wd car etc too that makes a day out expensive

The cost already limits how far we go

I just wonder what fuel prices will do to boat sales and re sale value .
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Old 28 April 2008, 17:44   #5
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If it carries on as it is now and hits the estimated £2 a litre then our boat will go for sure , and i will go back to a 4 stroke sib . Its not just running the boat its the 4wd car etc too that makes a day out expensive

The cost already limits how far we go

I just wonder what fuel prices will do to boat sales and re sale value .
The world has gone completely mad, if this insane gasoline price race continues will have to cruise at idle, don't be surprised at all to see in a near future GLP & GNC gas outboards.

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Old 29 April 2008, 02:31   #6
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I do wonder if demand and therefore higher prices has risen that much over say the last year to justify the higher cost we are seeing now. The alternative is that production has decreased or someone is stock piling fuel, the oil companies perhaps.

As to the rib, recon Andy Hightower could be setting up a new business teaching kite powered ribs

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7201887.stm

Wonder if they have the same right of way as a yacht

However with a modern fuel efficient 2 stoke rather than a smokey old japanese 4 stroke it will be a long time before we give up the rib

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Old 29 April 2008, 03:13   #7
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I do wonder if demand and therefore higher prices has risen that much over say the last year to justify the higher cost we are seeing now. The alternative is that production has decreased or someone is stock piling fuel, the oil companies perhaps.

Pete
You seem to be in denial. It is a simple fact that demand has been increasing at a frightening rate for some years now. China and India are the main culprits, but they are simply catching up with our excessive use of energy. In Europe and USA there have been NO new refineries built for over 10 years. So not only is there a lack of crude oil capacity, but there is also a lack of refining capacity too.

Even when crude was at 40$ a barrel and pertol at 70p or so a litre, the oil market was quite finely balanced. If you throw in the huge increases in demand from the East you can quickly see why prices are where they are.

And even if you do double or triple the price, where is the extra oil going to come from? Only now are new refineries being built in the East, and new exploration is only just beginning to return promise. But ever increasing demand will quickly eat up any extra supply.

As an example, some of the Arab states used to export gasoline. But their economies are booming too, and they sell it at something like 20p a litre, so now they no longer have any excess to export.

There is no reason why oil will not go to $200/bbl and petrol to £2/litre, perhaps even this year.

Traders will only store gasoline (or crude, or diesel, etc) if forward prices are above current ones (contango). Thus, they can lock in a profit. But global tank storage capacity is not so high, and storage costs are high.

Sorry, but the cold truth of it is, that the demand far exceeds a dwindling supply.

The only hope for boats is that it looks like diesel will become the most sought after product, as it is the most versatile - cars, generators, power stations, heating oil, and a base for kerosene. So gasoline may get some respite.

One interesting development, in France at least is E85. It is being sold for 80c/litre, instead of 1.40 for petrol. There are many people using 50% E85 and 50% petrol in their cars with no modifications, absolutely fine. Why not boats?
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Old 29 April 2008, 08:01   #8
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...and all the while, BP and Shell are reporting record profits. They are "blaming" these increased profits on the increased cost of crude oil. Am I missing something, or could they not just reduce the retail price if their profits are racing as they are?
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Old 29 April 2008, 08:03   #9
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There is no reason why oil will not go to $200/bbl and petrol to £2/litre, perhaps even this year.
Ouch

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Old 29 April 2008, 08:07   #10
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...and all the while, BP and Shell are reporting record profits. They are "blaming" these increased profits on the increased cost of crude oil. Am I missing something, or could they not just reduce the retail price if their profits are racing as they are?
Not again!!!

Even if the oil companies gave away petrol for FREE we would still pay about 70p per litre. Our petrol price is currently 42p per litre!!!

It's TAX TAX TAX is the problem.

When WILL people learn???
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Old 29 April 2008, 08:10   #11
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One interesting development, in France at least is E85. It is being sold for 80c/litre, instead of 1.40 for petrol. There are many people using 50% E85 and 50% petrol in their cars with no modifications, absolutely fine. Why not boats?
Why not?

Because the demand can never be met by growing crops - they are needed for FOOD. Haven't you seen all the problems being caused around the world by crops being used for fuel? Poor people are starving because they can't afford to eat and massive areas of jungle are being cleared to grow these crops - the orangutan will soon be extinct because of this!!!
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Old 29 April 2008, 08:13   #12
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One interesting development, in France at least is E85. It is being sold for 80c/litre, instead of 1.40 for petrol. There are many people using 50% E85 and 50% petrol in their cars with no modifications, absolutely fine. Why not boats?


At 60p a litre, can you pour it over ice and add coke to it?

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Old 29 April 2008, 08:18   #13
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...and all the while, BP and Shell are reporting record profits. They are "blaming" these increased profits on the increased cost of crude oil. Am I missing something, or could they not just reduce the retail price if their profits are racing as they are?
The oil majors ARE making big profits, but it's not in retail or at the pumps. They have stakes in many large oil fields which they have bought/invested in over the last twenty+ years. There were years (when crude was at $10 a barrel) where they made very little from these fields. Now it's payback time.

They also make alot of money on refining margins, i.e. turning a barrel of crude into 30% petrol, 30% diesel, 10% gasoline, 10% LPG, 10% fuel oil, 10% naphtha, etc....Over the last few years, these product prices have been very high in relation to crude prices. So the refineries are at full blast (5 years ago they ran at about 75%), and they are coining it in.

The market decides the price. No reason why BP should sell it's petrol in the UK cheaper than the Americans would buy it. So they don't.

Then, as Codprawn says, the rest is tax. And because the tax is a %, it has increased even more quickly. The government is enjoying a huge tax windfall thanks to the increased oil prices.

When UK/US complains to OPEC about high oil prices, OPEC quite rightly turns round and says, well if you think it's so high, take some tax off it.

I think that when petrol starts to hit £1.50 a litre and people really start getting pissed off, the government will be forced to lower tax rates. There is at least that 'safety net' against even higher prices for the time being.
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Old 29 April 2008, 08:21   #14
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Why not?

Because the demand can never be met by growing crops - they are needed for FOOD. Haven't you seen all the problems being caused around the world by crops being used for fuel? Poor people are starving because they can't afford to eat and massive areas of jungle are being cleared to grow these crops - the orangutan will soon be extinct because of this!!!
SO does that mean that when you got out on your 225hp boat, burning gallons of petrol, doing your bit to push petrol prices higher, thus encouraging bio-alternatives to compete, thus removing food producing fields from the market, thus starving poor third worlders........that you feel guilty?
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Old 29 April 2008, 08:27   #15
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SO does that mean that when you got out on your 225hp boat, burning gallons of petrol, doing your bit to push petrol prices higher, thus encouraging bio-alternatives to compete, thus removing food producing fields from the market, thus starving poor third worlders........that you feel guilty?
No because I use no gas at home - I have a woodburner. My car runs on used cooking oil so again no impact. As to "encouraging" - people wouldn't even consider bio fuels in the UK if they could buy petrol for 42p per litre!!!

And No I am not some loony mentalist - I do it cos it's cheaper.............
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Old 29 April 2008, 08:28   #16
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I think that when petrol starts to hit £1.50 a litre and people really start getting pissed off, the government will be forced to lower tax rates. There is at least that 'safety net' against even higher prices for the time being.
Lower taxes...you think, the Government would fight you all the way look at the fiasco over the 10p rate only due to huge pressure by the press and not the public was their really any climbdown from the PM...only hope maybe the haulage firms kicking up a stink
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Old 29 April 2008, 10:37   #17
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Old 29 April 2008, 11:04   #18
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Lower taxes...you think, the Government would fight you all the way look at the fiasco over the 10p rate only due to huge pressure by the press and not the public was their really any climbdown from the PM...only hope maybe the haulage firms kicking up a stink
Indeed this is true, profiteering from the price increase is against the rules except for when it is a government cashing in! Only this morning did I hear mention of inestigation of fuel companies being investigated.... by a government department.

However if we do find ourselves paying £ extortion + tax then the average joe would find they will have to adapt far quicker than any government. How long for a tax reform to come into effect, if at all?

I for one wont last long at current usage paying £2 + per litre and neither will many others, and the tax generated will be massive, but what use will cash be in a recession anyway :-)
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Old 29 April 2008, 11:21   #19
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Lower taxes...you think, the Government would fight you all the way look at the fiasco over the 10p rate only due to huge pressure by the press and not the public was their really any climbdown from the PM...only hope maybe the haulage firms kicking up a stink
I think that as fuel prices increase and the economy gradually grinds to a painful halt, the government (whose mantra seems to be growth above all else (oh and low inflation)) will have no choice but to cut a portion of the fuel taxes. Or at the very least not impose any more......!

It seems the English (myself included) are a bit too soft. The French are a shining example of how the people have far more say in how the country is run. If they don't like something, they simply all walk out en masse until it is sorted out. (cf. French fisherman pay something like 35 centimes/litre for their diesel).
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Old 29 April 2008, 11:23   #20
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.only hope maybe the haulage firms kicking up a stink
News said on the radio earlier that they are already demonstrating outside Parliament.
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