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Old 30 March 2011, 11:59   #71
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Originally Posted by Erin View Post
The reality is that the paying members of the public are the ones that are ultimately calling the shots on safety by their demands for fast cheap travel services. The only reason Condor would travel faster than is safe is to meet schedules. The only reason they do that is to maintain their service level and economy. The only reason they do that, is to keep the punters from complaining. Everyone moans when the ferry is late. No-one praises the fact that it didn't wipe out a boat en-route.
Trains, spring to mind
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Old 30 March 2011, 12:03   #72
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Quote:
The reality is that the paying members of the public are the ones that are ultimately calling the shots on safety by their demands for fast cheap travel services. The only reason Condor would travel faster than is safe is to meet schedules. The only reason they do that is to maintain their service level and economy. The only reason they do that, is to keep the punters from complaining. Everyone moans when the ferry is late. No-one praises the fact that it didn't wipe out a boat en-route.
Well said also...

Simon
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Old 30 March 2011, 13:27   #73
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may be true but its no defence, nor is it even mitigation. My clients want everything doing, as soon as possible, no matter what the weather. I'm the "expert", the skipper, and its on my head if I push the boundaries and the limits to get the job done. Fine if it all goes ok. If it all goes wrong they will step back and it will have been the skipper's decision - nowt to do with them m'lud!
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Old 30 March 2011, 14:25   #74
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A very sad incident caused by some form of human error, which no doubt will come out.

Before people quote other industries as shinning examples of good practice, the avaiation industry is certainly much more regulated, it is far from perfect.

The accident report into the Manx2 crash in Ireland is just out and it finds that the crew commenced an approach no less than 3 times well below their minima and elected not to divert, only to crash killing several persons. There are many more examples.

Due to the sheer volume, we see alot of minor deviations every day
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Old 30 March 2011, 15:42   #75
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Originally Posted by Hambleite
If this is the case then why isn’t it a legal requirement for ALL vessels that carry at least one person on board to have a radar reflector that meets a specific specification?
I take it you are not familiar with the solas requirements, or aware that in busy shipping areas vessel movements are already controlled by a remote traffic control (vts). Nice rant though. Might be interesting to see the precautions on board the fishing vessel before pointing the finger solely at the ferry.
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Old 30 March 2011, 17:18   #76
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I take it you are not familiar with the solas requirements, or aware that in busy shipping areas vessel movements are already controlled by a remote traffic control (vts). Nice rant though. Might be interesting to see the precautions on board the fishing vessel before pointing the finger solely at the ferry.
I think you may have misunderstood what he was saying.

Read it again.
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Old 30 March 2011, 17:43   #77
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may be true but its no defence, nor is it even mitigation. My clients want everything doing, as soon as possible, no matter what the weather. I'm the "expert", the skipper, and its on my head if I push the boundaries and the limits to get the job done. Fine if it all goes ok. If it all goes wrong they will step back and it will have been the skipper's decision - nowt to do with them m'lud!
Sadly the indictment of modern employment in a large organisation goes along the lines of 'if he won't do it, then we'll find another employee that will'. There's enough people wanting a job out there.
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Old 31 March 2011, 06:01   #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Searider View Post
I think you may have misunderstood what he was saying.

Read it again.
OK I'll try... ...yip:

Quote:
If this is the case then why isn’t it a legal requirement for ALL vessels that carry at least one person on board to have a radar reflector that meets a specific specification? The answer is that it is not a requirement.
So a quick google for the Solas requirements brings up this (which helpfully includes guidance on interpretation from MCA and RYA).

Quote:
Originally Posted by http://www.crouch-sailing-school.co.uk/new-solas-rules.htm
Regulation 19.2.1.7 – Radar Reflectors All ships shall have, if less then 150grt and if practicable, a radar reflector. RYA Note: The Department of Transport and the Local Regions has given a definition of “if practicable” as, “if it is possible to use a radar reflector on your boat then you must use one”. MCA guidance says that if your boat is bigger than 15m hull length, you should have a radar reflector that complies with the IMO performance standard (ie the reflector should have a radar cross section (RCS) of 10 square metres). Check with the supplier or manufacturer before you buy. If your boat is less than 15m in length, you should fit the largest radar reflector (in terms of RCS) that you can. Whatever size your boat is, you should fit the reflector according to the manufacturer's instructions and as high as possible to maximise its effective range.
Now perhaps we're arguing about the detail - but that makes clear it is already a requirement to have a radar reflector to a stated performance standard on any vessel > 15m - and a radar should be fitted wherever possible on smaller vessels, but given that only quite large passive reflectors
meet the IMO standard then it is clearly not practical to fit them on every vessel with one or more persons on board (e.g. canoe, topper dingy - and even a SR4 would struggle to find a sensible place for an echomax).

I'm sure that the fishing boat would have had a radar reflector on board. Following the Ouzo findings I expect they will be looking at how effective it was and if the Radar equipment on the ferry was appropriately set up to detect it.

If you are operating in thick fog in areas with fast ferry's you might want to ask yourself if you want to rely on their equipment to stop you getting run down? There are three parts to that chain which can fail: (i) your radar reflector doesn't give the return you expected [which worryingly might give you false confidence that ships can 'see' you]; (ii) the ships radar is correctly operating [to pick you out from sea clutter etc]; (iii) there is someone paying attention to the radar on the bridge.
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Old 31 March 2011, 06:08   #79
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Pride of Bilbao/Ouzo

To the guy that implied that three sailors being run down by a ferry is somehow their fault.
They were sailing a small boat at probably 5 knots and were restricted in their ability to manouvre as they were sailing ,hence they cannot sail directly to windward.
The ferry was doing 15 to 20 knots and I believe altered course toward them being unaware of their presence.
This is like trying to row away from a rib ,perhaps you would like to try it and I'll drive the rib?
And I suppose you also think that because they were sailing and not driving a rib that their lives somehow matter less?
If the guy on watch had closed the curtains around the chart table and wore ordinary glasses then maybe he would have seen them.
And if he'd listened to the other crew that thought he'd seen something then maybe they could have been rescued.
Or if they'ed got someone with no qualifications at all but who could be trusted to look out of a window that would have been good too.
I may be over reacting but I was there.
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Old 31 March 2011, 07:07   #80
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The Jersey Fishermans Association and local fish mongers have set up a fund to help the widow and four fatherless children that resulted from this accident.

If anyone feels they want to donate, more details here:

http://www.channel103.com/news/index.php?storyid=9721
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