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Old 17 December 2012, 03:01   #11
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... So by adding the HHO which might "cost" 1% in fuel, we increase the efficiency of the engine by 10% ...
That's where the logic falls down, PD. These figures fall into the summat fer nowt category.

Some years ago, BMW produced about a 100 'bivalent' 6.0litre V12 6 Series vehicles. They could run on hydrogen or petrol.

Running on pure petrol the vehicle did 20.3mpg on the urban cycle, running on hydrogen 5.6mpg. This correlates with the relative energy densities of the two fuels (34.6 v 10.1MJ/litre respectively). There was no engine power increase for running on hydrogen.
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Old 17 December 2012, 03:25   #12
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ive always understood that you cant create, or destroy energy, you can only transfer it one way or another. each time you do something with it there are losses in heat, sound, vibration you name it - all of which use some of the energy to create before that energy can be used for what you want.
im no scientist, but is it possible that this hho process is acting as a catalyst rather than a fuel?
oh, and just to correct a few people, rocket science is easy - its just fuel, ignition and thrust!
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Old 17 December 2012, 05:40   #13
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im no scientist, but is it possible that this hho process is acting as a catalyst rather than a fuel?
My point exactly, the additional energy from the hydrogen is negligible & costs, but just maybe it acts in the petrol reaction to make it more efficient. Not so much a case of something for nothing, more a case of making better use of what you've got. In a machine as inefficient as the ICE there has to be huge potential for efficiency savings.
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Old 17 December 2012, 07:46   #14
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No. Absolutely not.

If you're in any doubt try googling 'using hydrogen as a catalyst' and the only thing that you'll find that's actually relevant is another one of the HHO scams.

Spend 10 minutes watching the videos here(click)and take note of how much Dennis Lee (the 'inventor' of this) sounds like a TV evangelist.

Then look up another one of his cons, the pre-ignition catalytic converter ( Public Debut of the Pre Ignition Catalytic Converter ) where he seems to think you can crack petrol into a type of plasma fuel that's 50 or 60% efficient (depending on how much bollocks you read) using car battery power. This is impossible-to quote Wikipedia:-

Quote:
The largest internal combustion engines in the world are two-stroke diesels, used in some locomotives and large ships. They use forced induction (similar to super-charging, or turbocharging) to scavenge the cylinders; an example of this type of motor is the Wärtsilä-Sulzer turbocharged two-stroke diesel as used in large container ships. It is the most efficient and powerful internal combustion engine in the world with over 50% thermal efficiency.[4][5][6][7] For comparison, the most efficient small four-stroke motors are around 43% thermal efficiency (SAE 900648); size is an advantage for efficiency due to the increase in the ratio of volume to surface area.
The guy is a scammer of the worst kind. He robs people who are desperately trying to save money.
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Old 17 December 2012, 10:05   #15
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Try THIS for some light reading. For those wanting deeper science there are innumerable reference links from reputable sources.
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Old 17 December 2012, 14:13   #16
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No. Absolutely not.

If you're in any doubt try googling 'using hydrogen as a catalyst' and the only thing that you'll find that's actually relevant is another one of the HHO scams.

Spend 10 minutes watching the videos here(click)and take note of how much Dennis Lee (the 'inventor' of this) sounds like a TV evangelist.

Then look up another one of his cons, the pre-ignition catalytic converter ( Public Debut of the Pre Ignition Catalytic Converter ) where he seems to think you can crack petrol into a type of plasma fuel that's 50 or 60% efficient (depending on how much bollocks you read) using car battery power. This is impossible-to quote Wikipedia:-



The guy is a scammer of the worst kind. He robs people who are desperately trying to save money.
Well, the monoatomic ionized hydrogen sold it to me
Like I said, just playing devils advocate (slow day)
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Old 17 December 2012, 14:45   #17
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I don't have any understanding of this subject, but can't see how this can work ie free energy.
I experimented with a methanol breather system when I was living near Reno Nevada in the 80's. I had a 350 Chev fitted into a 1942 Ex army Dodge ambulance as my everyday car. I found using Methanol as an additive breathed directly into the inlet manifold via a regulator, I could pull the ignition timing up by another 15 degrees over standard without any pre ignition issues (Pinking). This made a huge difference to the vehicles performance, much livelier everywhere. I should point out that this was at 5500' above sea level. When going back down to sea level, I had to back the timing off again as pinking would become an issue.
With the methanol system working properly, I found if I resisted the urge to use the extra performance, there was a marked increase in economy, maybe 3-4 miles to a gallon. I assume this is due to the engine running more efficiently. The 350 was an old school V8 fitted with a Rochester 2 barrel carb, so not exactly state of the art.
I realise that this is a totally different discussion, but wondered whether one of these hydrogen devices, if they worked and were used in the same way, could boost the engines efficiency?
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Old 17 December 2012, 15:19   #18
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I don't have any understanding of this subject ...
Neither do I, Nos, Cookee et al. Neither does the might of the world's automotive industry brains trust. But we're all desperate for someone to tell us with data and facts, witnessed and verified. Please.

But, there could be a very good reason why no-one can.

Back in the carb day there were all sorts of fuel saving devices offering unbelievable power and economy improvements - trick spark plugs, fuel pressure regulators, magic fuel additives, magnetic whats-its around fuel lines, and and and ... Some bod fitted all of them to his car at the same time, and guess what?

Nothing. Other than the negative effect of the extra weight being carted around.
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Old 17 December 2012, 16:35   #19
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Originally Posted by Rokraider View Post
I don't have any understanding of this subject, but can't see how this can work ie free energy.
I experimented with a methanol breather system when I was living near Reno Nevada in the 80's. I had a 350 Chev fitted into a 1942 Ex army Dodge ambulance as my everyday car. I found using Methanol as an additive breathed directly into the inlet manifold via a regulator, I could pull the ignition timing up by another 15 degrees over standard without any pre ignition issues (Pinking). This made a huge difference to the vehicles performance, much livelier everywhere. I should point out that this was at 5500' above sea level. When going back down to sea level, I had to back the timing off again as pinking would become an issue.
With the methanol system working properly, I found if I resisted the urge to use the extra performance, there was a marked increase in economy, maybe 3-4 miles to a gallon. I assume this is due to the engine running more efficiently. The 350 was an old school V8 fitted with a Rochester 2 barrel carb, so not exactly state of the art.
I realise that this is a totally different discussion, but wondered whether one of these hydrogen devices, if they worked and were used in the same way, could boost the engines efficiency?
I suspect your benefits were because the methanol cools the charge and the extra air density from the cooled charge made the lions share/all the difference you saw.Unless you were chucking gallons of methanol in, it wouldn't make much odds to the power of the motor from the combustion of the methanol.
(FWIW,Methanol contains less energy than petrol-which is why carbed drag engines running on methanol use HUGE mainjets and the huge volume of methanol going in almost negates the need for a cooling system.)

5,500 feet up plus hot air isn't going to be much fun for an engine.

Burning a hydrogen/oxygen mix wouldn't help-it's not going to be cold. Water injection may have helped in almost the same manner though.
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Old 17 December 2012, 18:03   #20
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Well done to those who are able to understand what I am getting at.

Pikey Dave appears to understand.

I accept that these are not some sort of free energy device.

I have first hand experience of one in a Trooper which has lowered fuel consumption by as much as 30% on long journeys.

What I am keen to find is someone who has tried it on the 2.5 Freelander.

For those who are interested in checking it out a bit more have a look at some of the youtube entries on this link.


N JOY

hho generator in car - YouTube
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