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Old 22 December 2006, 15:24   #1
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Driving skills (was Driving in fog)

I assume most of the UK is now blanketed in dense fog by now? Doesn't help with the number of cars on the road Christmas time.

What I would like to know is why are the fastest cars usually the ones showing their rear fog lights? Now when they say "seriously reduced visability" they mean it. Fair enough the old granny doing 20mph but when some idiot is driving at 70mph in fog does he REALLY need his rear fog lights on? If the viz is so reduced they ARE needed why is he doing 70mph in the first place?
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Old 22 December 2006, 15:46   #2
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Basically I think its because he or she for that matter is a bit of a Knob...
that about covers it.
you may wish to try doing you christmas shopping in that stonkin rib of yours..I will look after it for you while you pop in woolworths...
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Old 22 December 2006, 16:04   #3
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I assume most of the UK is now blanketed in dense fog by now? Doesn't help with the number of cars on the road Christmas time.

What I would like to know is why are the fastest cars usually the ones showing their rear fog lights? Now when they say "seriously reduced visability" they mean it. Fair enough the old granny doing 20mph but when some idiot is driving at 70mph in fog does he REALLY need his rear fog lights on? If the viz is so reduced they ARE needed why is he doing 70mph in the first place?
Because its the UK and the UK is full of CHAVS.
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Old 22 December 2006, 17:29   #4
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Just done a round trip of a couple of hundres miles or so to the East Midlands and back. It's not too bad, I've experienced much worse fog than this. It's only just been freezing so no problem with washer nozzles freezing and the road surface was OK. The visibility was sufficient for 60-70mph most of the way, and it helped greatly that most people did use their fog lights so that on a busy motorway you could see the traffic clearly ahead. Some foolish people weren't using their fog lights which meant that their 5 watt tail lights weren't visible until you were close to them. One driver I saw on the M40 wasn't using any lights at all, and one driver was using hazards in lieu of non-functioning tail lights.

One of the worst problems with fog is speed differentials, and the worst accidents occur when fast traffic enters a dense patch of fog and brakes sharply. This occured in March 1997 on M42 resulting in a terrible 90 vehicle pile up and previously in the 70's on the M62 near Manchester resulting in the name "Death Valley" for a stretch of the motorway which descends into a deep dip which is often affected by fog as cold air sinks into this area.

I would say that the overall standard of driving I observed on the road today was better than usual.
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Old 22 December 2006, 17:29   #5
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Basically I think its because he or she for that matter is a bit of a Knob...
that about covers it.
What he said ^^^
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Old 22 December 2006, 17:41   #6
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Just done a round trip of a couple of hundres miles or so to the East Midlands and back. It's not too bad,
I did 600 mile round trip yesterday from Scotland to N Wales and back - and apart from some local patches it was fine. And as with RichardB I felt standard of driving was pretty good. There were a few people leaving fog lights on unecessarily and a few not putting them on when they should - but driving is like sex - we all think we are better at it than everyone else when in reality we probably are not!

And Cod if your biggest issue is people leaving fog lights on your life must be easy.
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Old 22 December 2006, 17:42   #7
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Just done a round trip of a couple of hundres miles or so to the East Midlands and back. It's not too bad, I've experienced much worse fog than this. It's only just been freezing so no problem with washer nozzles freezing and the road surface was OK. The visibility was sufficient for 60-70mph most of the way, and it helped greatly that most people did use their fog lights so that on a busy motorway you could see the traffic clearly ahead. Some foolish people weren't using their fog lights which meant that their 5 watt tail lights weren't visible until you were close to them. One driver I saw on the M40 wasn't using any lights at all, and one driver was using hazards in lieu of non-functioning tail lights.

One of the worst problems with fog is speed differentials, and the worst accidents occur when fast traffic enters a dense patch of fog and brakes sharply. This occured in March 1997 on M42 resulting in a terrible 90 vehicle pile up and previously in the 70's on the M62 near Manchester resulting in the name "Death Valley" for a stretch of the motorway which descends into a deep dip which is often affected by fog as cold air sinks into this area.

I would say that the overall standard of driving I observed on the road today was better than usual.


The fog is pretty bad here in some places - viz down to 1 lamp post away - drove 5 miles without getting above 2nd gear.

If you can't see someone unless they have foglights on you shouldn't be travelling at 70mph - what about a broken down vehicle/accident or debris on the road - you would have no chance!!!


Agreed on the other comments though.
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Old 22 December 2006, 17:45   #8
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And Cod if your biggest issue is people leaving fog lights on your life must be easy.
I wish - you just don't know the 1/2 of it.....

It is NOT people just leaving their fog lights on - it's the idiots who seem to think viz is bad enough to justify them but still drive at 70mph that worries me. Either it IS bad enough to justify them in which case you should slow down - or it is safe to drive at 70mph in which case you don't need them!!!
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Old 22 December 2006, 17:51   #9
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what about a broken down vehicle/accident or debris on the road...
Yep, but if you can see the next vehicle on the carriageway in front of you clearly, then only a broken-down meteorite plunging to earth is going to appear on the lane in front of you! Debris on the road is an interesting point.... what would you do? Swerve? Hmmm... think about it! Sure, always drive only as fast as you can see ahead for stopping etc, that's basic stuff.
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Old 22 December 2006, 17:55   #10
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Yep, but if you can see the next vehicle on the carriageway in front of you clearly, then only a broken-down meteorite plunging to earth is going to appear on the lane in front of you! Debris on the road is an interesting point.... what would you do? Swerve? Hmmm... think about it! Sure, always drive only as fast as you can see ahead for stopping etc, that's basic stuff.

Couldn't agree more - unfortunately it is probably the MAIN cause of accidents - that and driving too close.
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Old 22 December 2006, 18:17   #11
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driving too close.
Tailgating sucks! There's an idea for a bumper sticker
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Old 22 December 2006, 19:00   #12
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Would you turn your fog lights on in these conditions? The car is clearly difficult to see - and his standard tail lights don't help much.



So if you would - what speed would you drive at but my point is that if it was simply dark (not foggy) then your seeing distance is probably about the same as this (less with dipped lights) - and I suspect you would struggle to stop in this distance at 60mph.

I suspect most people would be driving on the above road in the dark at 60mph. In the sort of fog in the picture they might slow down to 50 - but still couldn't stop if a pedistrian or cyclist appeared at the distance that car is at.

Whilst there probably is a correlation between fog and increased accidents - I suspect that there is a psychological factor which makes (some of) us perceive a greater danger in fog than in the dark with the same visibility.
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Old 22 December 2006, 19:07   #13
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Well I was in a thick Fog bank last year comming into Pompy Harbour, I was just at planing speed 14 knotts and eye's where on stalks, I even told my crew to shut up as there where Yachts and all sorts comming in from all directions, couple this with Fog horns from Ferries and larger Ships that sounded like they were only 10ft away. It was so bad I thought the smal boat channel would be closed to allow larger ships into harbour.

This Knob end came flying past in his RIB at about 30/35 knotts, he had no Radar and no nav lights on and if on a collision course with a stationary object like a bouy would have had no chance of stopping or swerving out the way, net alone another vessel comming toward him. The combined speed wouldn't bear thinking about. What a dick head I thought!

I bet any money that the helmsman/woman of that RIB would drive down a motorway at breakneck speeds in poor conditions.
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Old 23 December 2006, 02:00   #14
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Yep, but if you can see the next vehicle on the carriageway in front of you clearly, then only a broken-down meteorite plunging to earth is going to appear on the lane in front of you! Debris on the road is an interesting point.... what would you do? Swerve? Hmmm... think about it! Sure, always drive only as fast as you can see ahead for stopping etc, that's basic stuff.
Bull.

Just because it goes between the wheels of the vehicle in front doesn't mean you've got time/space to react to it to do the same-and if the vehicle in front hits a stationary object then you're f*cked. Don't rely on the moron in front of you to be driving correctly or even paying attention. He probably isn't-and when he runs into the back of the pileup he hasn't seen then you're buggered too,along with the guy behind you that's doing the same as you.

I'm a truck driver. The standard of driving I've seen from Joe Public since the fog started has been so BLOODY ABYSMAL that I'm surprised I haven't seen a multiple fatality.
It reached a peak of incompetence yesterday with the number of people going away for Christmas who must drive 10 feet from the car ahead in fog at 70mph with so much crap in their cars that they can't see their mirrors or out of the rear window. It's blatant that they can't see properly-I could barely see well enough to do 56mph sat 8 feet up looking over the top of all the cars.
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Old 23 December 2006, 02:07   #15
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Would you turn your fog lights on in these conditions? The car is clearly difficult to see - and his standard tail lights don't help much.



So if you would - what speed would you drive at but my point is that if it was simply dark (not foggy) then your seeing distance is probably about the same as this (less with dipped lights) - and I suspect you would struggle to stop in this distance at 60mph.

I suspect most people would be driving on the above road in the dark at 60mph. In the sort of fog in the picture they might slow down to 50 - but still couldn't stop if a pedistrian or cyclist appeared at the distance that car is at.

Whilst there probably is a correlation between fog and increased accidents - I suspect that there is a psychological factor which makes (some of) us perceive a greater danger in fog than in the dark with the same visibility.
How far ahead is the car? It's not possible to tell distance properly from a 2d photograph but IF the spacings on the white lines are correct then I'd have my fog lights on in that situation-but I wouldn't be driving down that road at 60mph in the dark either if the road is as narrow as it looks.

Fog removes the visual cues and markers we use for driving at night-movement,moving shadows, catseyes etc. The other effect it has is to make the driver stare into it-often actually making them speed up without realising as they don't realise how fast they are going.
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Old 23 December 2006, 06:02   #16
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Nos - the lecture about what may or may not be visible, and the reaction and stopping times isn't necessary. Save it for your so-called "professional" colleagues, many of whom need re-education.
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Old 23 December 2006, 07:00   #17
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And my winter pet hate is the idiots that put their front Fog Lights on when there is no fog at all. And the summer one is those brilliant one handed drivers that can multitask and use a phone whilst driving.
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Old 23 December 2006, 07:09   #18
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And my winter pet hate is the idiots that put their front Fog Lights on when there is no fog at all...
And one of mine is use of (rear) fog lights when it's raining - I find it extremely tiring on the eyes.
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Old 23 December 2006, 07:14   #19
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And one of mine is use of (rear) fog lights when it's raining - I find it extremely tiring on the eyes.
Haven't noticed that one.

In the latest issue of the Institute of Advanced Motorists magazine somebody had the neck to complain about the Police because they had fined his son for driving with his Fog Lights on when it wasn't foggy. At least the editor had the gumption to back the Police. Would be nice to see more people getting reported for it. There again when was the last time you saw a Police Car actually stopping someone !
And I think this is the trouble most people think your never going to see a Police man so why should I bother with the rules or even take time to learn them.
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Old 23 December 2006, 09:09   #20
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Nos - the lecture about what may or may not be visible, and the reaction and stopping times isn't necessary. Save it for your so-called "professional" colleagues, many of whom need re-education.

I see. Yet another car driver that never does anything wrong.
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