Problem Today!

scousefreddy · 10 September 2006, 19:59

As I'm a new ribster I'm hoping someone can throw some light on a problem I had today. My outboard lost power without warning, to be honest I thought it had stopped at first. It made the beep which my rib makes when you put the key in, why it did this I don't know, then it powered right down. I immediately headed back to harbour with the engine chug chugging along giving me around 8 knots, although the rev counter showed a steady 3000. The speed then dropped to 4 knots but I'm assuming that's because I was going against the tide.

When I got back I wanted to carry out a few tests with the rib in the water but as I was losing the tide I had to quickly recover it and head home. I fully expected to find a damaged prop but it seems fine. I now have to get this checked but really haven't got the foggiest what could cause the engine to lose power so dramatically - anyone got any ideas?

The rib is a 5m Humber and the outboard is a Johnson 50hp which is virtually brand new, only done around 15 hours and it had its 10 hour service the other day. I live just outside Rochdale so MGA Watersports would have been the place to take it to but as they're now closed can any North West ribster recommend a place where I could go to get it looked at? I took it to Liverpool Powerboats for it's 1st service but don't really want to lug it all the way to Liverpool again if there's somewhere closer.

BogMonster · 10 September 2006, 20:08

were there any warning lights? on my Johnson it has four warning lights on the rev counter for overheat, low oil, no oil etc etc and when it beeps one of the lights will come on I think (though I haven't broken it yet, touch wood!)

just a wild guess but maybe it was the overheat warning and the engine shuts down to low revs as a self-protection measure?

scousefreddy · 10 September 2006, 20:22

That would explain the beep. Got to be honest, I didn't look at the lights, I was more concerned with getting back. I just tried putting the key in now and it beeps and all four lights come on then go out one at a time, of course the engine's cold now so no overheat light would come on just yet. Maybe in the morning I need to check the oil level and see if low oil caused the problem.

I wasn't aware that the engine shuts down to low revs if there's a problem but I didn't think 3000 was low? Though the engine was chug chugging and didn't sound right, at 3000 revs I've have expected more than 4 knots.

codprawn · 10 September 2006, 20:26

Sounds like exactly what happened with my suzuki 15hp 4 stroke. Turned out someone had stuck some black tape over the water intakes - had been flapping about so ok sometimes and not the next. Missfire and low power is a get you home mode.

Biggles · 10 September 2006, 20:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by codprawn

4 stroke. Turned out someone had stuck some black tape over the water intakes - had been flapping about so ok sometimes and not the next.

Why on earth would someone do that ?

AndrewH · 10 September 2006, 20:33

I know that with my Yammie I get different beep patterns(e.g. continous, intermittant etc) to indicate different faults. It could just be that you ran into an overhead situation and then engine reverted to a "get you home" mode that has just enough power to move the boat but that limits potential heating damage. You'll probably find some useful diagnostics for the beep codes somewhere on line, but if not then I'm sure that the Clymer manual for your engine will have the relevant info

Did you also happen to notice whether the cooling tell-tale was still p!ss!ng out the back? That would be sure way to overheat and I feel sure the engine would have some way of warning you that was happening

Also is it oil premix or autolube? If pre-mix, are you using the correct ratio (e.g. 50:1 or whatever your o/board takes). If autolube, are you able to see the oil level in the reservoir? If so have you tried drawing a line to indicate the level and then running the engine for a while and checking that the oil level has dropped.

Not sure if this is of any help but its somewhere to start

Andrew

Stormchild · 10 September 2006, 20:37

What were the conditions like ? - any chance of water ingress into your fuel tank? - Does your rib have a vented inboard tank or portable cans which you hook up when you go out? - I've had problems with condensation forming in portable tanks in the past, and I've now got a seperator fitted.
Checked all your wiring? Impeller OK? have you got a handbook with your outboard with some fault finding suggestions in? Does a flashing warning light flash in a sequennce that would indicate a certain fault etc.
Could be something and nothing, and a read up could well save you a few quid...

ian parkes · 10 September 2006, 20:45

if its a nearly new engine then surely its under warranty and should be taken back to the dealer

Hightower · 10 September 2006, 20:52

Just a long shot here, but what if you where speeding along when the rubber bush in the prop decided to let go?

The revs would rise very quickly and hit the rev limit "Beep" and then the prop might slip relitive to the engine speed which it why you were doing 8 knotts at 3000rpm.

I know that this has happened before to other people. Why not you?

Chug chugging at 3000rpm is a mystery though.

roaisland · 10 September 2006, 20:57

I'll bet your oil tank is low, I am assuming it is 2S injection. I wouldn't take any notice of the revs indication if the ignition is cross firing (safety mode) your tacho is prbably all to pot anyway.

Richard B · 10 September 2006, 21:00

It's almost certainly an error condition. Rev limit and "beep" is a common method of indicating this. Most common cause would be overheat, which as other have said, can be caused by something like a plastic bag covering the water pickup. First thing to do is consult your engine handbook, then consider running the engine on "muffs" out of the water to continue fault-finding.

codprawn · 10 September 2006, 21:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Biggles

Why on earth would someone do that ?

Not a clue - i had just bought the engine and it was fine - water coming out of the tell tale etc. Either someone did it on purpose when I wasn't looking or else it was packing tape that hadn't been removed - being black as black can be I didn't notice it and as the tell tale was ok I had no cause to look!!! Engine has been fine since thank god!!!

ian parkes · 10 September 2006, 21:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hightower

Just a long shot here, but what if you where speeding along when the rubber bush in the prop decided to let go?

The revs would rise very quickly and hit the rev limit "Beep" and then the prop might slip relitive to the engine speed which it why you were doing 8 knotts at 3000rpm.

I know that this has happened before to other people. Why not you?

Chug chugging at 3000rpm is a mystery though.

That sounds feasable to me . My suzuki has a no load rev limiter that cuts in at 3000 if you open the warmup throttle too much with the engine out of gear .
The chugging could be described as the revs hitting 3000 and then shutting down instantly before letting it rev to 3000 again . sound like you are opening and closing the throttle very fast continously.

Richard B · 10 September 2006, 21:47

Mmmm... not really chaps! A slipping prop bush is like a slipping clutch. You get so far, then it lets go, your revs rise very quicky, and I guarantee you will react very quickly with your throttle hand! Not the symptoms described at all.

Assume your engine is 4-stroke Freddy?

scousefreddy · 10 September 2006, 22:54

Thanks for all the replies and the questions which I'll try and answer...

Quote:

Originally Posted by AndrewH

Did you also happen to notice whether the cooling tell-tale was still p!ss!ng out the back?

Not only did I not look at the warning lights I didn't check the tell tale - DUH! Well I did when I started the engine naturally, but didn't think to check when the problem occured - as I said, I'm a new ribster but thanks to your comments I now know to check these things if a problem occurs again!

Quote:

Originally Posted by AndrewH

Also is it oil premix or autolube?Andrew

I've only done 15 hours in the RIB, so the oil was in the engine when it was supplied then replaced by a dealer during it's 10 hour service.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stormchild

What were the conditions like ? - any chance of water ingress into your fuel tank? - Does your rib have a vented inboard tank or portable cans which you hook up when you go out? - I've had problems with condensation forming in portable tanks in the past, and I've now got a seperator fitted.

Conditions were ok and I have portable cans, however when I started the engine before I set out, I noticed that the breather on the cap was open, probably not closed properly when it was flushed last; the boat has been covered since I used it last. Could leaving the breather open cause condensation in the tank and cause this problem?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Richard B

Assume your engine is 4-stroke Freddy?

Yes it is.

Tomorrow morning I'll check the oil level then will flush the engine using muffs and will see if the tell tale is there and will see how it sounds. I'll let you all know what I find - thanks for all your help!

Hightower · 11 September 2006, 00:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Richard B

Mmmm... not really chaps! A slipping prop bush is like a slipping clutch. You get so far, then it lets go, your revs rise very quicky, and I guarantee you will react very quickly with your throttle hand! Not the symptoms described at all.

Assume your engine is 4-stroke Freddy?

I'm sorry Richard, I can't agree as I know someone that this happened to and that's exactly how it happened. Also by the description given in the first post this seemed like a similar situation.

PS. Do you not have a water seperating fuel filter Freddy?

scousefreddy · 11 September 2006, 01:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hightower

PS. Do you not have a water seperating fuel filter Freddy?

Well I haven't fitted one and if one was fitted when the boat was put together I'm afraid that I wouldn't be able to recognise it unless it had a sticker on it saying 'water separating fuel filter'

I had a read of the engine manual tonight and sure enough, as a couple of people mentioned, my loss of power appears to have been caused by a safety feature that cuts in automatically when the engine overheats. It drops the revs to 3000 and will stay like that until you drop the revs to 800 or switch off and then it resets itself. So all I've got to do tomorrow is find out if the overheating was due to low oil or a blocked water intake (or something else!)

This is the 2nd time I've had a problem with my engine, the first one was a very simple one but due to my lack of experience I had to get some help with it, hopefully this will also be minor but I've felt quite helpless when these problems have occurred because even though I've been on a powerboat level 2 and intermediate course, they don't really cover fault finding. Is there a course run anywhere that gives newbies like me some training on what to look for when an engine conks out?

codprawn · 11 September 2006, 01:42

Remember it could have been a clump of weed or a plastic bag or even a jellyfish so the problem may have gone away!!!

codprawn · 11 September 2006, 01:43

And talking of jellyfish - do the Yanks call them jellofish???

jyasaki · 11 September 2006, 07:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Richard B

It's almost certainly an error condition. Rev limit and "beep" is a common method of indicating this. Most common cause would be overheat, which as other have said, can be caused by something like a plastic bag covering the water pickup. First thing to do is consult your engine handbook, then consider running the engine on "muffs" out of the water to continue fault-finding.

If you do, be aware that quite a few motors don't like running on muffs. They tend to run on the warm side, probably due to a lower volume of water available to the motor.

But, if it does pump water (i.e. telltale runs fairly strong), then you can probably run it reasonably safely in-water. I'd check oil level (you did say a 4-stroke, right?) first as well.

Your fuel/water separator will look like a large top-hung oil filter, usually with a clear plastic or metal bowl attachment on the bottom to trap any water.

Codprawn: No.

jky