MGN 280 22.9.1.2 - Harmonised code - possible introduction late 2011

[Tony Hill]

This is linked to the thread sea temperature.
Argyll Charter Boat Association wishes to publicise the following statement. It will affect all those operating small commercial vessels 12 passengers or less. Many RIBs operate under this code RIB operators can find the sea temperatures for their local area

Small Commercial Vessels - New Harmonized Code MGN 280
These new regulations will affect all small commercial vessels (12 passengers or less) operating currently as yellow, brown, code, Proposed introduction Oct 2011

[B]MCGA Working Group Meeting 29th/30th March 2011
Section 22.9.1.2 – MCA Harmonised Code [/B]
Mark Towl MCA Policies Unit Southampton – part of e mail receivedThe current wording in the Code requires the operator to ensure that there is suitable clothing onboard for the prevailing sea and air temperatures.
Additionally when there is a sea surface temperature of less than 10C, there should be an approved immersion suit, dry suit or other efficient garment onboard to reduce the likelihood of hypothermia should the wearer enter the water. That could mean a floatation suit or anything else that is suitable. I would not foresee that a set of wet-weather clothing would necessarily be suitable. The garment would need to have some form of thermal insulation properties when worn in the sea.

Bas Edmunds RYA Technical Manager – part of e mail receivedWet weather gear alone does not provide any form of insulation nor does it prevent the ingress of water when the user is immersed. It should be noted that this requirement is for the skipper/owner agent to provide this for the passengers and is not a requirement for survey. However, it would form part of an inspection if stopped by the MCA. It is not a requirement that they are worn but more that they are available. Generally our experience of the inspectorate branch of the MCA is that they are very thorough

Sea surface temperature Scotland is confirmed at 10 degrees C or less between mid/late November and mid/late May.

PLEASE NOTE – Current codes – there is no section 22.9.1.2 Section 22.7.2 requires immersion suits for vessels operating in high latitudes onlyArgyll Charter Boat Association will be writing to Mark Towl at The MCA Policies Unit for information and clarification of the following points
1. What recent incidents have occurred with small vessels to justify the introduction of these new regulations?.
2. Vessel abandonment should be to Liferaft. Entering the water is a last resort. How many incidents have occurred with small commercial vessels when abandonment to liferaft has not been possible, the sole alternative being entering the water.
3. The yellow code required suits for vessels operating in high latitudes.
What were the criteria used to establish high latitudes as a sea temperature of 10 degrees C?
4. The provision of floatation suits and immersion suits are difficult where the relative sizes of the passengers are unknown till arrival. Immersion suits (one size fits all) will not fit babies and children. Floatation suit are individually sized – no child sizes.
5. Entering the water in an immersion suit should we suggest be preceded with some form of training. This is not possible with passenger transport of the general public.

Many northern charter boat operators appear unaware of these changes which will be enforced from Southampton. Sea temperatures of 10 degrees or less affects Scottish waters (east, north and west coasts) not necessarily the south coast of England. The Professional Boatman’s Association will express concern at the Working Group meeting 29/30 March on behalf of its northern members
If you are concerned about the potential impact of these new regulations on our industry we urge you to ACT NOW and state your concerns
1. write to Mark Towl at Mark.Towl@mcga.gov.uk
2. If you are a PBA member write to Dave Gibson (secretary).
info@weymouth-angling.co.uk
If you are not a member could we suggest you consider joining so your views have representation by an organization at this meeting.
3. Write to your MP stating how this new legislation will adversely affect your business.
4. Pass on this information to anyone you know who has a small commercial vessel. Small island ferries (< 12 passengers) also appear affected.

The intention is to at least keep this topic on the agenda for a later Working Group Meeting so if you receive this notification after 29th March 2011 please do still write and let your views be known. The MCA need to be aware of the views of small boat operators before any future Working Group meetings

Please note these are the personal views and concerns of our Association following considerable consultation with the MCA Policies Unit and the Royal Yachting Association. They do not represent any official policy interpretation. It is suggested that you should seek independent advice.

[C2 RIBS]

Interesting thread,, i will send info for circulation via Professional Charter Association as I am aware we have a representative who has been attending the briefs and conferences about the plans and proposed changes wit the MCA. Up to now we have been kept well informed but had not been notified of this direction

i note " there should be an approved immersion suit, dry suit or other efficient garment onboard to reduce the likelihood of hypothermia should the wearer enter the water"
Can this mean we could carry an immersion suit for such a situation or ACTUALLY carry one for every client? The TPAs we carry are a coding requirement and I suspect were the accepted level for this eventuality. I am aware that conditions attached to CAT 3 night restricted for us is that suitable clothing is available for all passengers but it does ot included wearing them. I would recommend the wearing and instruct clients to do so. I cannot see how an operator could meet this level of equipment.

[SeaSkills]

For information:

I have already raised this as a question to the RYA in respect of guidance for recognised training centres operating in these type of water temperatures

Ian

[Tony Hill]

Our problem is trying to sort out the interpretation and the actual statements/regulations.
If you read Mark Towl's mail contents then he clearly states there must be a suitable garment for every person on board be they baby, child, adult, pensioner, disabled. I live on an island where the public ferry is an open 20 foot boat. For babes in arms there must be a thermal cot, my mother recently visited and she is 85 - not immersion suit material I fear.

The RYA have clearly followed the party line. If wearing waterproofs whilst out on a RIB is not considered 'safe for passengers then neither can it be safe for instructional purposes. The RYA cannot hide under their priviledged exemption clauses as issued by the MCA. Bas Edmunds states that there must be suitable 'immersion suits or other garments aboard.

ACBA are trying to publish the information widely, please pass it on. We believe the changes to the regulations cannot be justified on the grounds that there have been incidents. We are prepared to stand corrected. This perhaps is changing the rules for the sake of change and the implications to the operators particularly those up north will be significant.

We encourage everyone to write to Mark Towl and air your views as a commercial operator.

[Scoobysnax]

Whilst initially I was alarmed to see this proposal as I do not run an all year business in the UK I think the impact should be minimal.
The year round average for the whole of the UK is 11.1 and even today there are parts of the Bristol Chanel at 10 and the Solent is 8.
Are there any other changes proposed for the coding for passenger craft<12 persons

[The Grocer]

Unfortunately the UK extends further north than Brizzle...

Up here there are many small but inhabited islands where the ferry service is little more than a man in a wee boat - if these people (who are often on what would be less than the minimum wage, being self-employed) are required to make a large capital outlay on items which will never be used I can foresee that many of them will just pack up; and then the island economies will deteriorate even further. (Don't imagine for one minute that any Scottish politician will stand up and say "It's alright, we've got it covered.") It's all very well for a man at a desk in Southampton to have these brilliant ideas - he doesn't have to bear the financial and social consequences.

I understand perfectly well the consequences of an unintended dip in winter (as would any other commercial skipper); but the answer is easy to arrive at:
If the weather's so bad there's an unacceptable level of risk to vessel or persons thereon - just wait until it settles down. Simples!

[Rogue Wave]

Would Fladen suits cover it?

[The Grocer]

Originally Posted by Rogue Wave

Would Fladen suits cover it?

If they were:

1) Small enough to store the required number on a small vessel;

2) One size fits all precisely;

3) Very, very cheap...

...when you need to spend X x £75 on stuff you'll never use, and your gross profit per passenger per trip could be between £3 and £5, it's going to take a long time to cover the cost - especially in an area where J. Public is an infrequent visitor.

(Anyone who starts arguing about "business models" is probably an accountant [or a banker - even worse] with no grasp of real life in the islands).

[C2 RIBS]

Russell, I agree with you, the outlay for any operation is huge. It also does not say if they have to be worn or just available on the craft in case someone went in the water then the supply of a suitable suit or similar after recovery. I thought this is why we had TPAs for these occassions.

"I understand perfectly well the consequences of an unintended dip in winter (as would any other commercial skipper); but the answer is easy to arrive at:
If the weather's so bad there's an unacceptable level of risk to vessel or persons thereon - just wait until it settles down. Simples!"

I am down souf and do not support this additional inventory, safety comes first


Rogue- Fladen suits I have a couple but they are still not cheap and I believe they let water in at cuffs and ankles so very similar to the weatherproof kit we supply when needed.

[Poly]

Not sure what use this stuff will be on the boat. In almost any circumstance where a small open boat requires these you'll already be in the water before you've had a chance to put them on.

Rogue- Fladen suits I have a couple but they are still not cheap and I believe they let water in at cuffs and ankles so very similar to the weatherproof kit we supply when needed.

You need to try both out jumping into cold water, then staying in there for 15-20 minutes.

[Rogue Wave]

Originally Posted by C2 RIBS

Rogue- Fladen suits I have a couple but they are still not cheap and I believe they let water in at cuffs and ankles so very similar to the weatherproof kit we supply when needed.

Hi Ian are your watrproofs also flotatopn suits cos the fFadens are, they are also warmer and very comfortable to wear

My thought patternis is that if your customers are already wearing an immersion and flotation suit then do they have to have spare in a locker


and they ain't dear http://www.uk-fishing-tackle.co.uk/p...roducts_id=145

I do however fully support the ethos that you can't put a price limit on a customers safety

[Tony Hill]

There must be justifiable reasons to bring about change to regulations. The only justification for change is there must have been incidents where passengers on small commercial craft have had to abandon directly to the sea instead of to a liferaft.
Under freedom of information the MAIB are to provide details of all incidents to small commercial vessels where either the liferaft has been launched or the passenger has 'entered the water'
MGN 280 as proposed is for suits aboard and not worn This precludes people accidentally for example washed overboard.

Most on this forum take reasonably young, fit people to sea. As Russell states some of us carry the full range of the public from baby to Granny and all shapes and sizes in between.

MGN 280 'implies' section 1 that skipper/owner should advise customers on appropriate dress but
section 2 states Additionally when there is a sea surface temperature of less than 10C, there should be an approved immersion suit, dry suit or other efficient garment onboard
(Wet weather gear is not deemed efficient - e mails received Mark Towl MCA and Bas Edmunds RYA)

Should the small commercial boating community be unable to bring a sensible outcome then the debate changes to
Equipment type/size cost availability approval practicality etc
Where do you store sufficient equipment to cover all size of passengers
Do you have to offer instruction in your opening safety talk?
How do you get everyone appropriately dressed into what may be a difficult garment anyway when things have gone wrong. Garments must only be aboard not necessarily worn.
In an incident would your time be better spent minimising damage and dealing with the incident?

As some have admitted - won't be affected as they live in the south but even so please join the debate on behalf of your northern colleagues trying to earn an honest wage. Many of us operate all year. We accept there may be weeks when we can't go to sea due to weather, we all probably have written risk assessment limits of when we operate with regard to weather.

Do sent your opinions to Mark Towl MCA - the debate is open to everyone.
The impact would be huge to business and tourism. It does not just apply to RIBs.

[biffer]

i was hoping mark towl would be retired by now, the mca make it up as they go along, more gear to put on a boat, great!, i think we're gonna need a bigger boat comes to mind.
i've had my run ins with him over my cabin for cat 2 code, first of all he agreed, then changed his mind and offered cat3 saying, "we think the code means full standing cabin", it doesn't say that, it just say's fixed structure, when he started back peddling and asking how many people i could get in there i told him, there was more space in the cabin than in the liferaft he wanted me to carry, as i said, they make it up as they go along.
i agree with a broad based code of practice but there should be specific sections for different class's of boats, stupid things like anchors, i carry the same as a 7 ton yacht, the whole code of pactice is peppered with holes like that, we all know that ribs are safe, it's a shame they don't

[Poly]

Tony,

I think your MCA contact is misinterpretting what the Code says.

22.9.1 is a paragraph which is clarified by three sub paras. 22.9.1 requires you to advise what is should be worn.

.1 is sensible advice on appropriate clothing
.2 is particular advice in cold waters
.3 is sensible advice on footwear

Nothing in the code requires you to provide waterproofs (under .1) and non slip footwear (under .3) - simply to advise on their requirement. Likewise with .2.

Now is it reasonably for you to advise Mrs Jones she should wear a flotation suit and non slip shoes and then let her on board in a dress and high heels is another matter.

The only justification for change is there must have been incidents where passengers on small commercial craft have had to abandon directly to the sea instead of to a liferaft.

No a sensible risk assessment could identify a real risk (e.g. falling overboard) and see this is a suitable countermeasure (if worn).

Whilst I know exactly where you are coming from, I would assume that anyone operating a work boat in these circumstances, and risk assessing it as a one off activity, would probably insist on dry suits / flotation suits for crew - even if a short trip. Why do we assume it is ok to expose our passengers to greater risk?

Personally I see no point in having them on board in a locker (but as above that's not what the code says - and the section is even titled "Personal Clothing") - but if it were a pleasure ride rather than a local ferry it wouldn't be unusual to issue float suits to participants. If it really is just a local ferry operation - then perhaps local authority coding would be more appropriate and less onerous?

[Starovich]

To be honest, i think this is just more H&S for the sake of H&S.
When will it all end ? When we don't go outside, as its too dangerous, but wait, what if there is an earthquake, we cant stay inside either....

Common sense should be enough. If its that cold in the part of the world you live in then the needs should be covered, if its not, then don't force stupid rules on people.

"Additionally when there is a sea surface temperature of less than 10C" you realise you'll need a thermometer and a data recoded to prove the days you needed and didn't need to be wearing the gear

[SeaSkills]

Originally Posted by Starovich

Common sense should be enough.

Maybe, but you know what they say about common sense .... it's just not common enough

[biffer]

good seamanship and common sense has served me well for over 40 years, i don't need a pen pusher to tell me how to drive a boat safely

[speedy]

A very valid question to ask is, how many people have fallen out of an open vessel while engaged in commercial activities? In the past statistics quoted have tended to incude all boat users.

People who fall out of open vessels engaged in personal or pleasure activities should not be included in the statistics.

It would be expected that a professional skipper would do their utmost to ensure that no one falls out of their vessel. I have never had a person fall off a boat I was skippering. The way I view it is this, if people are going to start falling off your boats, its time to give up the game..

Some may feel that this is not a true comparison but there have been several cases where people have fallen off CalMac ferries so whats good for the goose is good for the gander! Immersion suits all round methinks...just in case!

[C2 RIBS]

Originally Posted by Tony Hill

.

MGN 280 'implies' section 1 that skipper/owner should advise customers on appropriate dress but
section 2 states Additionally when there is a sea surface temperature of less than 10C, there should be an approved immersion suit, dry suit or other efficient garment onboard
(Wet weather gear is not deemed efficient - e mails received Mark Towl MCA and Bas Edmunds RYA)

Should the small commercial boating community be unable to bring a sensible outcome then the debate changes to
Equipment type/size cost availability approval practicality etc
Where do you store sufficient equipment to cover all size of passengers
Do you have to offer instruction in your opening safety talk?
How do you get everyone appropriately dressed into what may be a difficult garment anyway when things have gone wrong. Garments must only be aboard not necessarily worn.
In an incident would your time be better spent minimising damage and dealing with the incident?


Do sent your opinions to Mark Towl MCA - the debate is open to everyone.
The impact would be huge to business and tourism. It does not just apply to RIBs.

Tony I am surprised this has not generated the responses I expected. You hit the nail on the head many times in your notes.. One being- where the xxxxxx do we store additional clothing just in case it is needed??
We already have some five large kit bags with client clothing in all sizes and weights depending on the weather. A good skipper will review the weather and forecasts and if the sea state is such to give concerns then we dont go. It appears that the suggested changes are to carry clothing in case of someone falling in- as I said before thats is what TPAs are for.

I will send a letter to Mr Mark before the date with my concerns and views. I use the ribs all year and we have been out this winter below the temparaure, but our briefings were slightly more involved and speeds reduced.

Also worthy of note RYA training schools are out all year on RIBs which have coded vessels so this would also apply to a school I guess(more costs again)

[biffer]

most of us charter lads will relate to this story, you pick up a bunch of people, do the brief and all the bits and everybodies really intelligent and asking loads of questions about everything, you drop them off for lunch or for the evening, when you pick them up they all look the same but they've turned into a bunch of loonies, they only question they ask is how fast does it go, one good rule, bugger about, i stop the boat, go stupid, i put them off, i like speed and fun as much as the next person, but spending time doing charters does shorten your fuse a little, maybe that's a good thing, i don't know, but i haven't had any complaint's