Invoices - what do you do?

Tim M · 19 January 2008, 09:29

What do people do (and indeed where does the law stand) when you get someone in to fix something, they are unable to fix it, but they still charge you a small fortune just to tell you they don't know whats wrong.

My current situation with with my engine. As some people might remember I had a bit of trouble with it last October. Turned out that the priming bulb had killed itself and little bits of rubber where blocking the flow of fuel. At the time I got a marine engineer in to have a look. He had a look and a fiddle and told me he wasn't sure but it might be the thermostat.

In the end I found the problem and fixed it my self.

He has just sent me an invoice for £90 for his time. I resent paying this because he really didn't get anywhere with the repairs!

By contrast, when my hard drive went wrong a couple of years ago, I took it to a computer shop for them to recover the data that was on it. They were unable to, but despite having spent many hours (so they say) working on it, they only charged me £30.

So, what would you do?

Nos4r2 · 19 January 2008, 10:07

If you're ever likely to need to use him again I'd pay up. Might be worth trying to negotiate a discount though.

<edit>
Saying that, if his basic checks don't extend to the primer bulb and filters I wouldn't use him again.

jwalker · 19 January 2008, 10:20

It's a common situation. Fortunately, I diy most stuff so I've not had to deal with it often. However, speaking for myself, I'd expect to pay for the call out to the engine and the time trying to diagnose the problem but I'd resist paying for work which was unnecessary and that would include a wrong diagnosis and the associated work and parts. But, if I chose to accept the parts, as in not removing the replacement themostat, I would pay for them. Would I pay for the fitting time? I don't think so. I'd balance the engineer's time to remove the unnecessary parts, which I definately wouldn't be paying for, with his fitting time. If he/she was being reasonable in attitude, I'd be tempted to negotiate. If not, it would be a case of reinstate the engine to the condition you found it.

I know a few folk who have had protracted vehicle work and they are charged for each attempt at a fix even when the engineer's diagnosis is wrong. In all the cases I'm aware of they've just accepted it and stumped up the cash.

I guess you need to be sure of the terms of work and clear about exactly what you ask to be done. If you ask for particular work to be done, you need to pay for it.

Hightower · 19 January 2008, 11:38

Tricky to get out of paying without going to Court. I'd have thought that he might stand his ground with regard payment as I guess most of the cost was labour. How long did he work on the engine for and did he use any parts?

Poly · 19 January 2008, 12:26

The question is - was it reasonable for a competent engineer (charging £40-60/hr) to spend 1.5-2 hours trying to diagnose the fault. Unless the true fault was common or very obvious then actually it might have been. It sounds like you paid him to do 1/2 a job (diagnose a possible fault) - I suspect he might have been more willing to discuss the fair cost if he had been paid to fix the fault.

Bigmuz7 · 19 January 2008, 12:41

I think thats a bit of a brass neck. You are supposed to be paying for his experience, not reward him for failure. If I was the engineer I'd be too embarassed to charge. And I would have protected myself from any dilemma by not attempting to repair something I didnt know enough about to start with. I'd tell him that, and offer something out of good will, incase he might be the only guy with the bolt or washer that saves your next day cruising. His service did not solve your problem. Why do these guys earn a living from not having experience

Hightower · 19 January 2008, 13:40

depends on how reasonable he is to talk to! If he sticks to his guns and charges you the time and parts he actually spent on the engine and won't shift on it, then I think you'll have to pay up or face legal action. His argument could be that the thermostat was in fact faulty and needed replacement anyway.

I guess what you'll have to do is phone him and ask. Was he aware that the problem turned out to be a fuel related one?

Poly · 19 January 2008, 14:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bigmuz7

I think thats a bit of a brass neck. You are supposed to be paying for his experience, not reward him for failure. If I was the engineer I'd be too embarassed to charge. And I would have protected myself from any dilemma by not attempting to repair something I didnt know enough about to start with. I'd tell him that, and offer something out of good will, incase he might be the only guy with the bolt or washer that saves your next day cruising. His service did not solve your problem. Why do these guys earn a living from not having experience

I think it is worth remembering there are two sides to every story. I am not suggesting that Tim is deliberately misleading us - but we don't know exactly what the engineer was asked to do or exactly what he told tim the next stage should be. For example - there is a big but subtle difference between,

"I have spent two hours looking at and testing your engine, and I can't find a fault, but the symptoms you reported might be a thermostat problem and my next step would be to take that off to test it - but its going to cost you another £40." AND

"The problems with your thermostat".

For example, in the original thread, Tim insisted he had already changed all the fuel filters (which presumably he told the engineer) - but it transpired that there was actually a filter Tim didn't know existed. Similarly it might be reasonable to assume that the main filters should have caught the crap that was causing the problem - but Tim then revealed that he had bypassed them for a short spell. Would the engineers have know this?... if not it may have made a significant difference in where they were looking for the fault.

Bearing in mind that two different engineers tried and failed to diagnose the fault it was perhaps not as simple as is suggested.

If you contracted him to fix it (without an unreasonable restriction on time / parts to do that) then he didn't do as you requested. However if you contracted him to take a "look at it" as suggested in the original thread then he was doing what you asked. Would you have been happier if he spend another 2 hours, actually fixed the problem and charged you £200?

codprawn · 19 January 2008, 14:57

Does a doctor still get paid when his patient dies??? Of course itf it's a simple fault that is missed it's a different story.

We get this all the time with computers. Today is a classic example. We were up all night setting up a brand new Dell server - the software is pre installed and normally we wouldn't trust it and set it all up again but they wanted it installed today. We took it to the factory this morning and it all went pear shaped. Needs a complete reinstall and we have to stay up all night and go in tomorrow as well. That's about another 16 hours work to set up Exchange - ISA server and all the rest.

Who should pay? Technically it's Dell but will they? We will of course invoice the company but will they pay the extra? We have been caught out so many times - would YOU work for nothing? That's why we are quitting computer work!!!

Poly · 19 January 2008, 15:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by codprawn

Does a doctor still get paid when his patient dies???

Gets extra for doing the death certificate doesn't he? Not sure I understand the analogy.

jwalker · 19 January 2008, 15:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by codprawn

..... the software is pre installed and normally we wouldn't trust it ....but they wanted it installed today.

If you took the chance, it's your fault. If the client insisted you leave it as it is to speed up installation, it's their fault. Easy.

codprawn · 19 January 2008, 15:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by jwalker

If you took the chance, it's your fault. If the client insisted you leave it as it is to speed up installation, it's their fault. Easy.

We don't take chances - the client was being difficult - things are very rarely black and white!!!

PeterR · 19 January 2008, 17:16

Hi Tim,In this situation you have to decide what is reasonable,and if its a black and white situation 1.you had a problem and called him to diagnose the fault and he told you his fee be it per hr or a price,if he didnt do his job then he shouldnt be paid but you will need to write and tell him why and send it recorded delivery.if however he said i charge x per hr regardless wether i fix it or not then you pay.i find it strange that the work he did was a while ago and he was happy to then send a bill.if an engineer did any work and he was happy with what he had done he would agree the bill before he left which make me think you are being taken for a ride .I personally would not pay it if its as simple as you imply but you can only be the judge of that.In the courts it will boil down to whats reasonable so if you can hand on heart say hes taking the piss, Dont Pay but also dont leave it write to him you could always give him a reference to this thread so he can see what everyone else thinks

PeterR · 19 January 2008, 17:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by codprawn

We don't take chances - the client was being difficult - things are very rarely black and white!!!

Codprawn is right if you are offering a service the customer doesnt care how you get there or how long it takes but they do care how much it costs and he is obviously making sure the customer is happy at any cost

Hightower · 19 January 2008, 18:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by PeterR

Codprawn is right if you are offering a service the customer doesnt care how you get there or how long it takes but they do care how much it costs and he is obviously making sure the customer is happy at any cost

I do think customers care how long it takes but I'll agree with everything else you've said, I know as I've had first hand experience how things can degrade though a lack of customer care and I can tell you who'll be the one to loose out as well.

codprawn · 19 January 2008, 21:20

Maybe I ahould put it into a better context than - "does a doctor get paid if his patient dies".

I once had a problem with one of our fleet cars - the gearbox suddenly started playing up - wouldn't go into anything other than 3rd and 4th. The car had done 100,000 miles and I thought it was possibly a gearbox failiure. 2 mechanics I have a lot of respect for both said that it was probably the hydraulic clutch - on many modern cars the master and slave are sealed and must all be replaced as one unit!!! I had this done and guess what - the car was still the same.

I know they spent hours working on it so I paid the bill even though the problem wasn't fixed.

An old codger of a mechanic told me it was probably one of the 4 springs on the clutch plate itself had failed. I thought this unlikely but changed the clutch - and he was right all along!!! The clutch was barely worn but 1 spring broken.

Sometimes problems are only solved by a process of elimination - and sadly that can cost money. You should always ask yourself - would I work for nothing??? Again as I said it is sometimes difficult to work out if the person is any good or not.

Hightower · 20 January 2008, 00:44

I'm a Mechanical Engineer by trade, I work in a high production Paper Cup manufacturing environment, each machine pumps out up to 300 cups a min. (432000 cups a day). Yes they go wrong, anything from total breakdowns to a small crease in the side of a cup. Now to identify a total breakdown in a machine is usually an easy job, however the cause of the breakdown can be more difficult, the crease in the cup can be your worst nighmare and you might well replace or adjust 101 things to rectify this fault.

Isn't that like diagnosing engines too. You could have to most experienced person trying to fault find an engine, they can't expect to get everything right all the time. They still expect to be paid for their trouble, whether you like it or not.

Bigmuz7 · 20 January 2008, 08:59

I've been in situations where I've had invoices from big companies like Volvo, who have charged for parts & labour worth over five figures and they have waived them, totally, since their engineers couldnt fix something, that took me 3 seconds to work out. Whilst their fitters were deep into workshop manuals, they forgot to check the simple and obvious things first. I appreciate an enginneers time is expensive, cos thats my day job too, and thats why I suggested paying something, but the quality of advice is what youre supposed to be paying for, not what nice trousers the guy wears.

In my experience, in my plant trade, the older boys who know the most dont tend to shout about it, but would see it as a personal failure if they couldnt sort something that theyed had taken on, thats what drives their thirst for knowledge, and it becomes a matter of personal satisfaction, when they have defeated the problem that is before them. This to my mind engenders a degree of respect for the fitter, whereas charging for a look, poor advice or lack of a result by and large does not, save for people who are paid to look then charge like loss adjusters, or surveyors

Bigmuz7 · 20 January 2008, 17:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bigmuz7

worth over five figures

correction 4 figures 3555 was the amount

Jizm · 20 January 2008, 19:10

My old union rep said to me:

"Engineers are paid for what they know as well as what they do"

You get this kind of thing all the time especially with electrical faults. It may be a lost connection that turns out to be a corroded connector etc. However it took 3 hrs to find due to no drawing or access problems. You could be there all day for a broken wire! The customer then turns around and says 'is that all it was? could've fixed that myself if I'd known where it was.' They then resent paying the £00's of labour for a recrimp or some soldering etc which takes 5 mins. This is precisely the point, they probably wouldn't have a clue how to diagnose the fault, hence the phone call to the engineer in the first place!
They can be known to hover over you and the moment you find the fault they want you out so they can fix it themselves, fair enough it's their property but sometimes they don't want to pay you for the time you have put in. A difficult situation to be put in. This not to mention the jobs you turn up at where the owner or customer has had a go or a 'tinker' themselves and is then less than honest about it!