Another yes or no question: this time on tests for powerboaters

[Poly]

Rockraider - how many of the problem drivers do you think are currently insured at all? insurance seems relatively cheap to me and discounts are minimal for having a pb2 so I guess the actuaries haven't identified this is a risk they can avoid?

[John Kennett]

Originally Posted by Rokraider

Let the flack begin!

I have to say that I'm really struggling with this. Your original post was clearly going to be contentious, yet you complained when people posted disagreeing with you. Now you follow up with a suggestion that you openly admit is massively flawed and say "let the flack begin".

I didn't have you down as a troll, but it looks like I might have got that wrong.

[willk]

Originally Posted by Rokraider

Let the flack begin!

Ach, why not?

I can't help thinking that you've latched onto the Insurance Angle now that Poly expressed a liking for the stuff. Other than that, it strikes me that you've opened a box of hand grenades and are wondering where the pins are. Boatnomad (a VERY sensible sort) is bang on the money when he wonders where the "Yes or No" went! Did you think they'd all say "Yes" or were you just trolling the forum to argue with the "Nos"?
I'm very interested in your idea about refresher courses. I have to "refresh" one of my boating quals every now and again, but I wonder how you'd feel about refreshing your car Driver's Licence?

EDIT - I see the other guys have added a reply or two since I started typing. Still - I want my say said.

[Maximus]

Originally Posted by Starovich

On other forums that would be regarded as a troll comment.....

Well good job it's on here then!
Anyway....I think you may have the answer to the question by now...don't you?

[Starovich]

Originally Posted by Maximus

Well good job it's on here then!
Anyway....I think you may have the answer to the question by now...don't you?

Answer? I didn't ask the original question, keep up...

[Barrowboy]

Hmmmmm. This all goes to show that the nights are drawing in and peeps are now spending FAR TOO MUCH TIME sat in front of their electronic media....

[Rokraider]

Originally Posted by Poly

Rockraider - how many of the problem drivers do you think are currently insured at all? insurance seems relatively cheap to me and discounts are minimal for having a pb2 so I guess the actuaries haven't identified this is a risk they can avoid?

Labelling this as another yes or no thread was a mistake in hindsight, but it seems to have triggered some discussion, if nothing else.
As I see it, the problem is that people on here are keen and dedicated and spend as much time on the water as they can, this way they gather experience and should be capable operators. So the general view is from a position where the discussion about casual users gets easily overlooked or dismissed.
There are a lot of people out there who dip in and out and only operate a boat occasionally. They lack experience and skills and as the system stands currently, they are not obliged to do anything about it. If everyone had to sit a PBL2 before they could get insurance cover issued. it would mean that the numbers of people who have at least received some training would rise and hopefully some of what they learn will stick.
There will always be the wankers with no insurance or abilities who will slip through the process, but hopefully the general standards of safety would improve?

By the way Polly no c in Rokraider

[Rokraider]

Originally Posted by willk

Ach, why not?

I can't help thinking that you've latched onto the Insurance Angle now that Poly expressed a liking for the stuff. Other than that, it strikes me that you've opened a box of hand grenades and are wondering where the pins are. Boatnomad (a VERY sensible sort) is bang on the money when he wonders where the "Yes or No" went! Did you think they'd all say "Yes" or were you just trolling the forum to argue with the "Nos"?
I'm very interested in your idea about refresher courses. I have to "refresh" one of my boating quals every now and again, but I wonder how you'd feel about refreshing your car Driver's Licence?

EDIT - I see the other guys have added a reply or two since I started typing. Still - I want my say said.

This was bound to be contentious but was not intended to be trolling.
I often don't use either RIB much over the winter as most of my weekends are spent supporting dinghy events in Chi Harbour or Hayling Bay and they slow down over the winter. Come the spring when I feel a bit rusty, I take my mate who is a RYA instructor out with me to give me a refresher. I actually find it very useful and new recovery techniques are being developed all the time and it allows me to keep up to speed with them as well.


I wouldn't want to have to take a car refresher course, but if I couldn't get insured unless I did, I would have to accept it. Might improve a few bad habits that I have undoubtably picked up over the last 40 years.

The "latching" on to the insurance angle was one way that seems possible to enforce things as much as you can.

How do other countries such as France cover it?

[John Kennett]

OK Rokraider, let's assume for now that you're not a troll and that you are making a serious suggestion.

What exactly is the problem that you are trying to fix with your proposed legislation?

[Maximus]

Originally Posted by Starovich

Answer? I didn't ask the original question, keep up...

OH!...Blimey!
Someone enjoys playing the Rightous indignation card me thinks
.....(I'm sure he'll outlast you JK ....if you let him!)

[Pikey Dave]

Originally Posted by Rokraider

How do other countries such as France cover it?

All boats have to be registered, all operators have to have a "leesonce" & pass a test at a Bateau Ecole (boat school). There is an extensive list of compulsory safety equipment. An open Rib is restricted to 5nm offshore. The annual ( luxury) tax is several hundreds of euros. They have 5 different agencies that can stop & search you both at sea & ashore (and do so regularly) After all that, they are still a bunch of muppets & spend more money on taxes & paperwork than they do on their boats.
Diving for scallops/shellfish is illegal & leads to confiscation of boat & gear. Trailers have to be registered & mot'd. I think I've covered most of it, is that what you want?


.....sh1t happens.......

[Trimix]

Yup, the French love their rules - no one wears a LJ though

[Maximus]

Originally Posted by Pikey Dave

All boats have to be registered, all operators have to have a "leesonce" & pass a test at a Bateau Ecole (boat school). There is an extensive list of compulsory safety equipment. An open Rib is restricted to 5nm offshore. The annual ( luxury) tax is several hundreds of euros. They have 5 different agencies that can stop & search you both at sea & ashore (and do so regularly) After all that, they are still a bunch of muppets & spend more money on taxes & paperwork than they do on their boats.
Diving for scallops/shellfish is illegal & leads to confiscation of boat & gear. Trailers have to be registered & mot'd. I think I've covered most of it, is that what you want?


.....sh1t happens.......

.....PLEASE DELETE THIS POST!
Shhhh...Osbourne has eyes and ears everywhere!

[PeterM]

Originally Posted by John Kennett

So from your response you would make Powerboat level 2 a legal requirement, but not VHF, first aid, or sea survival. They are all useful and could save lives, so why don't you want to make them all compulsory?

Cause and effect ? - If people were better trained / briefed or experienced (by a PB or something else) there would surely be less chance of them needing to use a VHF, practice 1st aid and then survive in the sea?

Isn't this why ' words of advice' are given by RNLI / MCA when they've been out and dragged someone back in with no VHF, getting very cold with no idea about windchill or how much faster water pulls heat from person than air ?

I'll get my coat

( PS - I still prefer 4 strokes ...... )

[Poly]

Originally Posted by Rokraider

If everyone had to sit a PBL2 before they could get insurance cover issued. it would mean that the numbers of people who have at least received some training would rise and hopefully some of what they learn will stick.

Or, the number of people taking out insurance would fall and there would be more uninsured boats being driven by apparently incompetent people. I think your assumption that incompetent people bother with insurance may be flawed. As I said earlier if this were a "no brainer" to reduce risk then insurers would already be loading premiums much more than they do for people without training.

[willk]

Originally Posted by PeterM

Cause and effect ? - If people were better trained / briefed or experienced (by a PB or something else) there would surely be less chance of them needing to use a VHF, practice 1st aid and then survive in the sea?

When you were doing the Sea Survival and Elementary First Aid courses as part of your APB Commercial Endorsement, did you advance this theory? I'm guessing not

[PeterM]

Originally Posted by willk

When you were doing the Sea Survival and Elementary First Aid courses as part of your APB Commercial Endorsement, did you advance this theory? I'm guessing not

I'm confused as to what you mean ? What Theory ?

My thinking (yes I do think very very rarely) is if we were all let loose driving with no form of test it would be chaos, same with flying etc .

You 'could' go buy a dive rig and jump in and start blowing bubbles with no training? But people don't s its bloody dangerous to do that...

Lets not just focus on PB courses 'only' teaching you to 'drive a boat' . A good PB instructor will pass on experiences and general 'advice'.

So do I think it would be good to have standard - Yes

Do I think it will ever work or be enforceable - No

[Starovich]

Maximus, do you have a thought,question or opinion on this topic, or are you just getting you post count up with snide one liners and "clever" quips?

[GordyP]

I do wonder if something similar to the CBT would work, nothing like a PB2 but would cover absolute basics like lifejackets, exposure protection, kill cords etc.

[Pikey Dave]

Originally Posted by Trimix

Yup, the French love their rules - no one wears a LJ though

Or kill cord. My French friends used to think I was OTT or was that OCD, but then after seeing how we do things here, they are quite accepting & happy to play along. They see it as normal, whereas in France LJs aren't very Macho.


.....sh1t happens.......