Buying a SIB and engine

[lightning]

Hi there everybody.....I'm looking at buying a small SIB for use on the canal/Scottish Lochs/Norfolk Broads etc. I need something that I can unpack, assemble, and launch myself, possibly just at the canal side. The boat will carry myself and my wife.
I've become confused by choice! It's come down to the following. I want a solid (wood or aluminium etc) not slatted floor. 2.6m or 3m boat, will the 2.5m be big enough for us or should I get the 3m. (been looking at Honda Honwave boats)
Engines, the dealer is suggesting a Honda 5hp. This weighs 27kg. Will I be able to lift the engine off the boat while I am still in it, to get it out of the canal?
There's a 2.3hp engine which is 17kg but I think that might be a bit weedy for crossing Loch Ness (for example)? I did see a 3.5hp engine made by Mercury, what about that, any use?
The price for the 3m boat with 5hp engine is about £1500 new.
I don't need high speeds, the limit on the Broads is 3-6mph and on Windermere I think it's 10 mph. However I do want to be able to go faster than walking speed!
Sorry if these are all basic questions, I searched the forum but all posts seem to be regarding bigger boats than these.

[lightning]

Can't anybody help? I know these are dull questions, but I have to start somewhere! I know nothing about boats yet.

[prairie tuber]

Originally Posted by lightning

Hi there everybody.....I'm looking at buying a small SIB for use on the canal/Scottish Lochs/Norfolk Broads etc. I need something that I can unpack, assemble, and launch myself, possibly just at the canal side. The boat will carry myself and my wife.
I've become confused by choice! It's come down to the following. I want a solid (wood or aluminium etc) not slatted floor. 2.6m or 3m boat, will the 2.5m be big enough for us or should I get the 3m. (been looking at Honda Honwave boats)

Go with as long of a boat as you can physically handle.

Originally Posted by lightning

Engines, the dealer is suggesting a Honda 5hp. This weighs 27kg. Will I be able to lift the engine off the boat while I am still in it, to get it out of the canal?

You are the only one here who would know the answer to that question. Again, go with as powerful of a motor as you can physically handle and is within the boats maximum specs. Will you be launching from a beach or a ramp/dock? In either case, a set of pneumatic launching wheels are an absolute must. Do not even consider buying the boat, unless you are getting pneumatic (not the useless plastic ones) launching wheels at the same time.

The launching wheels will allow you to mount/remove your outboard onto/from the transom while on dry solid ground. Trying to lift an outboard from a dock onto the transom (or vice versa) while standing in a boat that is wobbling in water can be very tricky (ie. dangerous) if you have a substantial outboard weight to deal with.

Originally Posted by lightning

There's a 2.3hp engine which is 17kg but I think that might be a bit weedy for crossing Loch Ness (for example)? I did see a 3.5hp engine made by Mercury, what about that, any use?
The price for the 3m boat with 5hp engine is about £1500 new.
I don't need high speeds, the limit on the Broads is 3-6mph and on Windermere I think it's 10 mph. However I do want to be able to go faster than walking speed!
Sorry if these are all basic questions, I searched the forum but all posts seem to be regarding bigger boats than these.

I googled Loch Ness and noticed that it is about 39km long by ~ 3-5 Km wide. While not a big lake, it is probably plenty long enough that if the winds whip up along it's length (which they probably frequently do, given the hills on each side) the waves/chop can probably get sustantial. If you are in the middle of the lake and things look like they are about to get rough, you would probably not want to be limited to a 3-5 hp outboard. But that would depend in large part on how adventuresome you and your wife are. Again, this is also where extra boat length is of benefit.

There is alot of info in the archives of this section of the forum. I think you will definitely find it worthwile to peruse through them. Do you currently have powerboating experience?

[RibinSpain]

I would buy a second hand outfit where all the extras are thrown in, they soon add up - trim tabs, cover, wheels, fuel tank etc. There are a few on b&o.com for c 1.5-2k which look q tasty. That way you can speak to the owner to see if the setup is suitable.

If you search on the threads here I got loads of good advice with roughly the same questions, ideal setup for me being 3.1-3.4m with 15hp 2 stroke. It's then just a case of finding a decent deal out there. Q suitable for pottering about in at lowish running costs.

Hope it helps & good luck in the search.

[Nos4r2]

Either that or buy something 2nd hand like a 340 with 2 engines-one near max size for the boat and a 4hp for broads/river use.

[chris123]

I have a 3.5 metre long boat - with the kit I carry it is comfortable for two adults, cosy for three, crowded for four.

Any large stretch of water can get relatively choppy in the 'wrong' conditions, be it Loch Ness, Breydon Water or Chichester Harbour. Conditions a RIB would not even notice will give you a wet and bumpy ride in a SIB (that's part of the fun ). I would suggest the biggest SIB you can manage (financially and weight / size wise). I would try and get a 'test drive' of any boat you are interested in - ideally on the water, but at least you should test ease of assembly / dissembly / transport.

From your wording I assume you are thinking of launching / recovering over the canal bank. A lot will depend on how high the ground level is above the water level, and the condition of the bank - you need to consider the risk of damage to either yourself or the boat. The feasibility of fitting / removing the outboard will depend on how fit/strong you are and how stable the boat is in the water (again bigger is better). Personally I would think it more hassle/risk than it is worth and would look around for suitable slipways - I guess these might be few and far between on the canals, but there are some, for example at this marina:

http://www.boatlaunch.co.uk/default....redfilterid=11

Though you would need to check that the slip actually exists.

Cheers

Chris

[lightning]

Thanks for the advice everybody. I'm going to a boat dealer tomorrow, they are going to show me the various sizes of boat/engine to see what I think. They've said they will inflate any boat from their stock for me to have a look at.
It sounds like I need the larger 5hp engine (well, larger compared to the 2.2) and I'll see what I think about boat sizes.

[chris123]

A couple of points to remember:

1. When in use, space in the boat will be taken up by fuel tank, outboard tiller and other kit (waterproofs, extra clothing, flares, anchor?, handheld VHF, basic tools, lunch). Granted you won't need all this kit on a canal, but you would on Loch Ness.

2. Just like when buying a car, do not feel pressurised to buy the first boat you see, even if the dealer makes you feel guilty for getting him to inflate a boat for you. Look at a few options - if this dealer is offering a Honwave, have a look at some other makes as well - eg Quicksilver, Bombard, Zodiac. A brand new Avon might be more expensive than the equivalent Honwave (and may be heavier), but a second hand Avon will most likely last better than a brand new Honwave and have better resale value.

Cheers

Chris

[avon calling]

I have an Avon Rover 2.8M SIB which fits in my Ford Focus boot along with my 7.5 HP Honda 4 stroke outboard.


I cant rate the Honda highly enough, Its utterly reliable quiet and economical to run. Although its not in 'toy towing territory' its powerful enough to fight through a choppy tide in the English channel and still make progress, and its easyish to carry about.

Go for a tried and trusted brand name when looking at a SIB as launching and the odd grounding out can take its toll on the material. I believe that my Avon is made of Hyperlon which is about as good as it gets and will give you peace of mind.

Dont forget that the dealer will of course recommend what he has to sell and not necessarilly what is the best product or best for you, so shop about.

Have fun choosing.

Phil

[Wavesurfer]

Originally Posted by prairie tuber

Go with as long a boat as you can physically handle.

Originally Posted by Nos4r2

Either that or buy something 2nd hand like a 340 with 2 engines-one near max size for the boat and a 4hp for broads/river use.

An air floor SIB would give the longest boat for the minimum weight. I have a Bombard 380 with a Honda 20, however with a Yamaha 4hp I find top speed is 6 knots, which would be fine for canal or river use.

[lightning]

Right then, I've been to a couple of boat dealers today, I was thinking of the Honda 2.5m aluminium floor dinghy with the Honda 5hp engine.
However the dealer had no aluminium floor ones and he said that what I really wanted was a slatted floor or an "air V floor".....the slatted floor looked OK but had a flat bottom, the "air V floor" had a shaped V keel.
Once again I did not know what to do. The dealer, when asked, did not seem to think there was much difference between the two, but he said the slatted floor would be the one he would go for.
Engines, well the Honda 5hp was pretty heavy at 27kg, I could just about lift it, I was wondering if I'd be able to manhandle it onto the boat once in the water, or carry it down a slipway with the engine attached. He offered a Mercury 3.5hp which weighed only 17kg, the same as the Honda 2.3 so I guess that may be the one.
So what to buy? Which is the better, aluminium, slatted, or "air" floor? Or does it make no difference on this small a boat.
Aluminium floor is 14kg heavier.

What I REALLY wanted was the 2.5m aluminium floor boat with the Honda 5hp, but that weighs 76kg all up.

How about the 2.5m slatted floor Honda boat with the Mercury 3.5hp. Total weight 53kg.

[prairie tuber]

Did the dealer show you how the launching wheels work???

If you could barely lift the 27 kg outboard in the show room, there is absolutely no way you will be carrying it down a slipway (or on a sandy beach) and into the water, to mount it on a transom.

If a trailer is out of the question, you will definitely need pneumatic launching wheels. Set the boat up on dry solid ground, then ROLL it down the slipway (or across the beach) into the water!

[Poly]

Originally Posted by prairie tuber

Go with as long of a boat as you can physically handle.

Lightning - why not a RIB (or even a hardboat) or a SIB on a trailer? What car are you going to put this in? Have you thought about how much space the boat, fuel tank and engine will take up in the car. I assume you can't be local to the Broads and Loch Ness so that presumably means you will be bringing "holiday stuff" with you. This might put another restriction on you.

I googled Loch Ness and noticed that it is about 39km long by ~ 3-5 Km wide. While not a big lake, it is probably plenty long enough that if the winds whip up along it's length (which they probably frequently do, given the hills on each side) the waves/chop can probably get sustantial. If you are in the middle of the lake and things look like they are about to get rough, you would probably not want to be limited to a 3-5 hp outboard. But that would depend in large part on how adventuresome you and your wife are. Again, this is also where extra boat length is of benefit.

PT - you are quite right the prevailing winds are along the length of the loch (SW'ly) and can kick up reasonably waves (I've seen 4ft+). At displacements speeds which I think you will probably be stuck to 2-up with a 5HP on a medium sized sib, a trip back along the loch in either direction in poor weather would take along time - but the options for recovering the boat elsewhere, and getting back to your car by public transport. That said with a nice high pressure over the area it can be glorious - and would be spectacular for exploring in this sort of boat. Not sure how flexible you will be to fit in with the weather? Much the same applies to Loch Lomond or any of the other "large" inland lochs in Scotland.

Do you currently have powerboating experience?

if you don't and are planning to go on a course anyway - then I would suggest you take the course before buying as it might change some of your opinions on what you want/need. One thing to be aware of is that a lot of schools have large high powered ribs with "power trim and tilt" etc. Whilst that is all valuable learning and experience - I think you will get more out of it if you can find a school which also has smaller tiller steered boats too.

[chris123]

As PT says, if you could just about lift the 5HP outboard in the dealers, you will struggle to manhandle it on to the boat. That said, the hardest part will most likely be getting the outboard in and out of your car boot - something to try at the dealers.

Don't get too hung up on total weight - transom wheels are a no brainer, with these fitted, trundling the boat (with outboard fitted by the car) between car and water should be easy.

If I was in the market for a Honwave (though I freely admit to being very biased in favour of Avon / Hypalon - from a quick check the equivalent Avon is actually siomilar in weight or lighter than a Honwave ), I would place them (for me personally) in order of:

First choice = Aluminium floor
Second choice = air floor
Third choice = slatted floor

That said, I bought a trailer for my SIB because I got very bored very quickly with fitting and removing the floorboards, so maybe an air floor would be an option for you. The lack of inflatable keel would put me off the slatted floor - the keel helps performance / directional stability. .

Originally Posted by Polwart

PT - you are quite right the prevailing winds are along the length of the loch (SW'ly) and can kick up reasonably waves (I've seen 4ft+)

I think you would want to be very careful somewhere like Loch Ness with such a small SIB / outboard combo. In all but ideal conditions things could be quite hairy, potentially dangerous. Planning your trips and careful attention to weather forecasts would be even more essential than it normally is. I assume Loch Ness will see quite a lot of (high speed) boat traffic, the wakes of which could also be a factor.

Cheers

Chris

[chris123]

A couple of other things to consider - the Mercury 3.5HP has an integral fuel tank - on the plus side it saves space, on the downside it only has a fuel capacity of 1.3 litres. It may be possible to use an additional external fuel tank, otherwise it may affect your range. I imagine fuel consumption will be good, but that said the 3.5HP will be working hard to push you along at a reasonable speed which will have a negative effect on consumption.

Cheers

Chris

[codprawn]

The problem with the Honwaves is that you can't use normal transom wheels which are essential.

Avoid aluminium floors - way to heavy. Wood are the best overall but air floors are better if you have to keep inflating/deflating the boat.

I have a Quicksilver 3.1m which is great. It has a wooden floor and also the air keel. It IS possible to have both!!!

Make sure you get proper transom wheels NOT the plastic ones!!!

Plenty of deals around

http://www.boatsandoutboards.co.uk/view/BHM361

http://www.boatsandoutboards.co.uk/view/EML644

[lightning]

OK thanks once again everybody for all the advice.
If I could fit these launching wheels I could assemble the boat at the car and wheel it down to the water. My "car" is actually a Transit Connect van so no problem with space. I think I could lift the 5hp engine out of the van and onto the boat. My worry was trying to get it into the water! However the wheels sound like a solution to that.
I see that Mercury do a 4/5/6hp engine (choice of hp) and it's 25kg, lighter than the Honda and a bit more power. It's got a seperate fuel tank and a reverse gear (?)
So it comes down to the air floor or the aluminium floor. The air floor had a more pointy front to the boat, was available as a 2.4 or a 2.7m, and had a keel shape that looked like a proper boat (sorry that's my best effort at a description of it)
The aluminium floor, well he didn't have one but it's listed as 2.5m and having an "air keel" and the less pointy front like the slatted floor one.
So I'm going to make a decision here. I'm going for the Mercury 6hp engine and the launching wheels, just need to decide on the boat.
Plus Loch Ness sounds like it's not such a good idea. I only mentioned it as I've been there on holiday. I think the boat will find itself mostly on the canal and the Norfolk Broads.
I'll look at the other boats suggested above. Air floor sounds the way to go.

[codprawn]

What is wrong with a wooden floor - not slats but removable boards - lighter than aluminium and stiffer than an air floor.

The only drawback is that it takes longer than an air floor to assemble but if you can chuck the boat in the van it's not a problem!!!

And don't worry about Nessy - if the weather is nice and you don't go too far from the shore you will be fine.

If you are still insistant on a Honwave remember they don't take normal wheels cos of the bits that stick out at the back.

[PeteH]

Originally Posted by lightning

OK thanks once again everybody for all the advice.
If I could fit these launching wheels I could assemble the boat at the car and wheel it down to the water. My "car" is actually a Transit Connect van so no problem with space. I think I could lift the 5hp engine out of the van and onto the boat. My worry was trying to get it into the water! However the wheels sound like a solution to that.
I see that Mercury do a 4/5/6hp engine (choice of hp) and it's 25kg, lighter than the Honda and a bit more power. It's got a seperate fuel tank and a reverse gear (?)
So it comes down to the air floor or the aluminium floor. The air floor had a more pointy front to the boat, was available as a 2.4 or a 2.7m, and had a keel shape that looked like a proper boat (sorry that's my best effort at a description of it)
The aluminium floor, well he didn't have one but it's listed as 2.5m and having an "air keel" and the less pointy front like the slatted floor one.
So I'm going to make a decision here. I'm going for the Mercury 6hp engine and the launching wheels, just need to decide on the boat.
Plus Loch Ness sounds like it's not such a good idea. I only mentioned it as I've been there on holiday. I think the boat will find itself mostly on the canal and the Norfolk Broads.
I'll look at the other boats suggested above. Air floor sounds the way to go.

Hi we have a yam sport 310 which weighs in at 45 kgs,in the bag its a hefy lump to carry about,once inflated it dont seem that heavy but need 2 of us to launch.
The ideas of wheels is a good one but i have never been a fan of drilling holes in the transom.
Ours has wooden floor(4 parts) and the keel blows up to give it that rib look and feel.
Going on to the outboard,ours is a 4hp and is a lump to attach to the boat even on dry,i would not even try to mount it on water i think things might get a bit unsteady and a accident may be around the corner.
Moving on,canals,you need a permit from BW and they are not cheap unless you use it on there regular.
When we got our sib we went off to Anglesea and got our water wings in a few bays and got talking to other like minded folk.
We are off to the lakes again this time around just because there is no tides and a little calmer.
just enjoy yourself and be safe,common sense goes a long long way.

[codprawn]

The wheels are so handy it's well worth a few extra holes - as long as you seal them up properly.