Commercial courses

tim griffin · 26 July 2004, 17:19

Hi everyone would like some feed back on this one please,
any interest in commercial rib courses just kicking some ideas around and am wondering if there would be a call for it , rules are changing Jan 2005 for commercial endorsements ie an exam is now required undertaken by a Yachtmaster examiner or Trainer so all comments welcome
regards Tim Griffin
www.griffmarineservices.co.uk

Tideway · 26 July 2004, 18:09

Hello Tim,

I suppose it depends on what is meant by 'commercial'. Do you mean that there will now be an exam for those with YM or Coastal tickets who want to operate commercially? Currently, you just need to get the 1st aid and Medical for the RYA/MCA endorsement, don't you? I know that this is under review, but get v. lost when looking at MCA regs

It would be fantastic if you could specify a bespoke course for commercial work, but by definition the breadth of operations that a commercial user may be involved in could make this difficult. EG. Grab sampling, trawling/netting, enforcement patrols, SAR, fast tender, safety boat, fish farms etc, etc.

As a general comment, I really feel that anyone who is contemplating a course should brief the trainer as thoroughly as possible as to their workload and also do it in waters similar to their proposed operating area. I have been on several courses in the Solent (which were nice), but generally operate in estuaries, frequently at night, where local knowledge is a premium.

Hope that this helps,

t

tim griffin · 26 July 2004, 19:19

Thanks for the reply Tideway its for commercial rib operation mainly passenger
re the commercial endorsement you need your advanced powerboat ticket first aid vhf and sea survival and pass a medical after Jan 2005 you will be examined by a yachtmaster examiner or powerboat trainer to gain commercial recognition by the MCA you will still need all the above . not sure about doing the advanced course in estuaries in the solent where do you mean , as for sar RNLI RLSS do these courses as for fishing covered by SEAFISH its just an idea and am not expecting any take up just sounding people out
thanks
regards tim
www.griffmarineservices.co.uk

Seb · 26 July 2004, 20:10

Will existing advanced ticket commercial endorsements be honoured or will this proposed exam have to be taken regardless?

Tideway · 26 July 2004, 20:15

Hi tim,

Ahh understand better now. I actually meant that I have done several RYA courses in waters nowhere near where we operate ie. courses in the solent and we are bobbing around in the east coast estuaries. Sorry, this wasn't clear in first post.

A bespoke commercial course would be good though, especially for refresher training. For example, nearly everything we do is pilotage and we rely heavily on our local knowledge. However, new vessels, and more often than not new gizmos, are probably not fully exploited due to lack of familiarity with the technology etc. Refresher training on the actual workboat in the local area would definitely benefit our crews, who are mainly scientists using boats as a tool rather than anything else

Didn't know about the changes in Jan 05 though, so a useful thread.

cheers,

t

Pete7 · 26 July 2004, 21:01

Tim, good idea, but not sure if there is a big enough demand. Perhaps you might be able to run a a few in amongst your other courses.

However have to say I was disappointed with the RYA "Advanced Course". When someone showed me RYA slides of how rope is made on an advanced course I nearly made my excuses and left. But the best was still to come, half the course could even park a boat and had done little boat handling since doing the basics.

Good idea, worth persuing, shout if you want some ginepigs to practise on.

Pete

Paul Glatzel · 27 July 2004, 07:13

Pete7

Advanced Course: You are right to be disappointed re your Advanced Course as what you say you covered really is below what you should be addressing at that level. This reinforces the point that before investing in a Course really do take the time to check out the school concerned and more particularly the experience of the Advanced Instructors that will run it as logically they make or break the value of the course. (PS: Don't mean to sound smart after the event - even though it reads that way!)

The point about less than capable helms attending the course is a valid one but is one that is easily prevented. In boat handling terms any (potential) course attendee should be able to be dropped in any boat (power up to c33ft) and either bring it alongside perfectly or at the least extremely well and safely. In respect of navigation type knowledge if you cannot plot a course to steer or tell me about ‘Speed over Ground’ then that tends to suggest you are not at the right level. Applying these two ‘tests’ to those that want to attend tends to ensure no-one comes along materially below standard. The way I look at it is that if we sign off someone with their Advanced Certificate we are saying they can take out a commercial craft & passengers. You can be sure that in the event of an accident the MCA will be all over the Skipper and the RYA all over the school that passed them. By accepting individuals below standard onto the advanced course we are actually doing them a disservice as they will tend to be up against it the whole way through and far more likely to have to receive an ‘action plan’.

One of the reasons for people attending Advanced below the ‘level’ was the very large step between Level 2 & Advanced. The advent of the intermediate course creates a perfect stepping stone to the Advanced course and more particularly from Level 2. Don’t let any of the above suggest that people should not look at advanced just chat through with a school the options and formulate a plan with them.

Seb

Contrary to my initial understanding, anyone with an Advanced Certificate issued up to 31st Dec can get that commercially endorsed at any time after. Anyone who has not got it by then will need to take the ‘exam’ under a Powerboat Trainer. I think these ‘exams’ may be booked centrally via the RYA as per Yachtnaster but I’m not 100% sure.

Paul

Seb · 27 July 2004, 08:21

Thanks for that info Paul but do you mean December 31st gone or December 31st this year?

Cheers

Simon Hawkins · 27 July 2004, 08:42

Seb. Paul means 31st December 2004. If you have an advanced certificate prior to this date then this can still be endorsed without taking the exam.

Rogue Wave · 27 July 2004, 11:48

Don't the IMO do a course for commercial Rib Drivers?

tim griffin · 27 July 2004, 19:17

Pete 7 thanks for the reply bloody shame about your advanced, rope slides
wow bet that was interesting , it does pay to have a chat to the school first to make sure you are not aiming too high, and wasting your money when a lesser course ie the new intermediate will be of greater benifit, as not everyone wants to go out at night and some find it frightening, thats why we do night nav courses for students it gives them some experience of navigating at night and builds thier confidence, same goes for the electronic nav courses it builds from the level two and is excellent to then go on and do the intermediate, i hate having to give action plans but sometimes you have no choice , for me its not about bums on seats and cash through the till
its about giving the client what he /she has paid for, as i said i am only kicking the idea around due to the rules changing and am getting a few enquiries , so best place to ask is here i dont think for one minute there will be a big take up only 6/8 at the most but thought i would check the feedback first . Paul has read my mind on the pre assessment keep em coming
it all helps
regards Tim
www.griffmarineservices.co.uk

Simon Hawkins · 27 July 2004, 20:50

Tim. Good idea and think it is worthwhile.You know where i am if you need me.

Rogue Wave · 28 July 2004, 07:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by tim griffin

Pete 7 thanks for the reply bloody shame about your advanced, rope slides
wow bet that was interesting , it does pay to have a chat to the school first to make sure you are not aiming too high, and wasting your money when a lesser course ie the new intermediate will be of greater benifit, as not everyone wants to go out at night and some find it frightening, thats why we do night nav courses for students it gives them some experience of navigating at night and builds thier confidence, same goes for the electronic nav courses it builds from the level two and is excellent to then go on and do the intermediate, i hate having to give action plans but sometimes you have no choice , for me its not about bums on seats and cash through the till
its about giving the client what he /she has paid for, as i said i am only kicking the idea around due to the rules changing and am getting a few enquiries , so best place to ask is here i dont think for one minute there will be a big take up only 6/8 at the most but thought i would check the feedback first . Paul has read my mind on the pre assessment keep em coming
it all helps
regards Tim
www.griffmarineservices.co.uk

wheres the chinscrathcher emoticon when you need it !

David Hickman · 28 July 2004, 07:47

If anyone has complaints about any RYA powerboat courses they have done please let Jon Mendez know at the RYA. Those schools running courses such as the one mentioned on this thread must be brought into line or RYA recognition withdrawn.
OK This mught sound a bit heavy, but it just really gets to me when I hear about this sort of thing. Most of us put alot of effort into running high quality courses which customers go away at the end of having had an enjoyable couple of days and reached the required standard as laid down in the syllabus.

Rogue Wave · 28 July 2004, 08:00

David,

when you say the school mentioned in this thread are you refering to my comments re the instructors course if so I'd better expand on them. The school itself was a very well run and respected school the instructor an assesor could have been more established in their fields.

What I was really saying was don't automatically think that every PB instructor is god's gift to powerboating, it could be he is an extreemly able Yachtsman Instructor who has started powerboating as an income stream

However if a lifeboat coxswain or commercial fisherman wanted to teach me about the sea and about handling a boat therein....I am a listening whether he is an instructor or not!

There is a lot of good schools out there, what I am saying is if you are gonna get some training try going to a dedicated powerboat and check out the instructors logbook to make sure he has the relative experience.

David Hickman · 28 July 2004, 16:36

Could not agree more.
I don't think you can be an expert in all areas. I have the same problem with a RTE near to me trying to be the best in every aspect of Sail, Motor and Power. May back fire on them one day.
I have been approached by the senior Helm of our local ILB. He wants his RYA Advanced PB Cert and is more than happy to do the course even though he has won awards for rescues whilst at the helm. His attitude is that you are always learning and you will never know everything!!
Every time I am on the water I normally learn something else. Towed in a hire boat on Monday who was firing flares near to Torquay. Motor cruiser got there first but was on passage so I towed him into Paignton. (L2 customers outboard soon covered the towing syllabus). He had steering failure. Wife got on the RIB he stayed on the hire boat with a 5hp on the back.
After a tow of about 20mins we came along side in the harbour and sure enough his steering wheel did not work. What the hire company did not tell them was that they could use the tiller on the engine!!!!!!!! They did not what the long black handle with a twist grip on it was for!!!!

David Hickman · 28 July 2004, 16:37

Rogue,
Not, It was pete 7 who was not happy with his ADV PB.

Pete7 · 28 July 2004, 18:27

Gents, thankfully it was an attendance course to pick up the ticket which I should have done long ago but never actually got around to it. spent most of the weekend at the back of the rib listening to a rather sick Opti, just wondering when it was going to break down. Oh apart from a quick mutiny when I thought they were actually going through with the plan of travelling from Hamble to Portsmouth and back at night time in a F7 with a sick engine and no elephants trunk fitted to the rib. Thankfully I managed to persuade them that with a high tide we could go to Ely instead and still achieve all the aims of the course.

The instructor (and a good friend) did explain afterwards that he was astonished the RYA had given him those slides so we went with the syllabus and covered all the points required by the RYA.

However a commerical course with the backing / recognition of the MCA would be could be much more practical. Needs some thought to content and pre-requirements, length of course ect, perhaps run over two weekends to make it worth while.

Pete

tim griffin · 28 July 2004, 19:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rogue Wave

wheres the chinscrathcher emoticon when you need it !

whats that then ????
regards Tim
www.griffmarineservices.co.uk

tim griffin · 28 July 2004, 19:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pete7

However a commerical course with the backing / recognition of the MCA would be could be much more practical. Needs some thought to content and pre-requirements, length of course ect, perhaps run over two weekends to make it worth while.

Pete

i was thinking more like 3 weeks to cover the whole raft of topics spoke to Jon Mendez re this and no problems from him , there will be a pre assessment to the course its not a zero to hero course , and there is a lot to cover and sort out, two week ends is not enough for how i want to present the course
but am willing to get feedback on how people think it should be run more ideas the better really , i know some schools do it already so putting together a course is not too difficult so long as the content is at the right level just need to find the right level at the mo , there will be some RLSS SAR
stuff in there as well though not sure how much but all input positive or negative is good
thanks
regards tim
www.griffmarineservices.co.uk