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Old 14 February 2017, 09:21   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffstevens763@g View Post
out of interest dave how far does silicon penitrate into the hypalon reason i ask is that you have to give a good abrasion to it before gluing does it go deeper that that?


Dunno Jeff, very few solvents will touch it. No doubt you'd get it off eventually. I recall a case at the Nissan factory in Sunderland where they were having problems with poor paint finish. They traced it to a deodorant worn by one of the blokes in the paint shop. It contained silicone & as he moved & sweated, silicone was being dispersed in the air & contaminating the bare metal surfaces.
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Old 14 February 2017, 09:57   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pikey Dave View Post
Dunno Jeff, very few solvents will touch it. No doubt you'd get it off eventually. I recall a case at the Nissan factory in Sunderland where they were having problems with poor paint finish. They traced it to a deodorant worn by one of the blokes in the paint shop. It contained silicone & as he moved & sweated, silicone was being dispersed in the air & contaminating the bare metal surfaces.
kinda proves how easy it is to get a contaminated repair then cheers
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Old 14 February 2017, 10:40   #33
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A little light reading
http://www.cemag.us/article/2004/03/...ination-part-1
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Old 14 February 2017, 11:12   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffstevens763@g View Post
does PVC suffer the same richard?
Plastomer family (PVC/PU) have a non-porous coating, so silicone just kinda ends up sitting on the surface, attracting dirt. You need to be careful though, because when you attack it with solvent, you can end up driving it deeper in to the material.

I'm a big fan of pre-cleaning with denatured alcohol (you call it methylated spirits) before repairs, since it will remove most grease/oil/silicone and it is very cheap.

The method of the coating dispersal for plastomers is very different from an elastomer calendering process, so wicking with PVC/PU is not as much of a problem, even with older boats.

Even if wicking were an issue and you got some mold/mildew in to the polyester support cloth, you'd never see it because of the coating. Out of sight, out of mind I guess?

It tends to be as well with PVC/PU, since the material is cheap and the labor is usually cheap, the seams tend to be reinforced with internal seam tape (thin vinyl), external seam tape (thin vinyl), and cosmetic external seam (PVC material, like the boat itself) tape...so the edges are well reinforced / sealed.

Instead, you trade that off for the risk of plasticizer migration which causes that "burnt orange" color on the topside of the material and general stickiness. The plasticizers eventually destroy the glue, all of the seam tape in the process if it's a glued construction boat. Welded boats just end up looking like hell, but they usually remain very functional in a cosmetically poor state. In the event of a puncture though, they're extremely difficult to glue to. PVC patches + polyurethane glue don't bond very well to polyester fabric, not to mention the amount of prep wipes you need to do to remove ALL of the plasticizing oils in the area. You end up needing to prep wipe, then rebuild a coating with glue, let it cure, then glue your patch to the glue-coating (called gluetexing).

I joke with people, there is no perfect solution, only the "least worst" solution for your application.

CSM/CR is extremely easy to work with for manufacturing since it is an elastomer family material, but it is hell to keep clean and retain air... It is also expensive as hell, and NOT environmentally friend since it is a thermoset material.

PVC/PU is the future, once the chemists can get the UV stability problems worked out and cheap. Even if everybody makes 100% welded tubes, nobody wants to cruise around in a porous, crispy, burnt orange RIB. The scraps from production can be recycled even. The Bombard "Air Ethic" is built with recycled PVC. The manufacturing side for PVC/PU is also a lot cleaner, thanks to no longer requiring a metric ton of grinding dust be generated for proper adhesion.
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Old 14 February 2017, 11:46   #35
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intweresting cheers both
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Old 14 February 2017, 13:56   #36
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Tube deterioration opinions?

Quote:
Originally Posted by beamishken View Post
I did wonder if they weren't hypalon as they feel different to the ribcrafts and my own boats
I didn't realise the manufacturer actually offered pu tubes?
If you've identified the boat please don't mention the builder as I didn't start the thread to point fingers I was just looking for opinions


Also think I recognise manufacturer. Are you sure they're not hypalon, it's a no cost option between pu and hypalon. I only ask as their pu tubes are currently welded not glued. If it's pu then yes the transom, lifeline fixings and wear patches glued but bow tube joints would be welded. Can't be sure though if they welded pu back in 2010 though.
Either way would concur glue/preparation failure at that age and extent regardless of use and abuse.
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Old 14 February 2017, 14:21   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chipko View Post
Also think I recognise manufacturer. Are you sure they're not hypalon, it's a no cost option between pu and hypalon. I only ask as their pu tubes are currently welded not glued. If it's pu then yes the transom, lifeline fixings and wear patches glued but bow tube joints would be welded. Can't be sure though if they welded pu back in 2010 though.
Either way would concur glue/preparation failure at that age and extent regardless of use and abuse.
I thought initially they were hypalon,the material is different from the ribcrafts and my delta and sons sr4 its kind of more shiny and less like rubber .After some of the comments I thought it may be pu which I thought may explain the failure however as the thread has progressed it would appear that it is more likely a glue defect issue and there is glue on both parted surfaces which kind of confirms that theory
It looks like the problem has been there from new although has taken its time to show and no one within the club recognised the signs early on.
I'm considering an email to the manufacturer and realy wanted others opinions/ reactions to help me decide on the tone of the mail
I guess if the seams are welded then that's a good thing as the boat isn't going to deflate

Thanks to everyone else who has commented it's interesting to get other people's thoughts on the issue and in particular thanks to the tube experts who can give informed opinion
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Old 14 February 2017, 15:02   #38
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My two pence I would ring asking thier advice what the cause is and the best way forward for repair, test thier reaction on a friendly basis you might be surprised a repair at cost possibly fingers crossed
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Old 14 February 2017, 17:16   #39
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Quote:
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My two pence I would ring asking thier advice what the cause is and the best way forward for repair, test thier reaction on a friendly basis you might be surprised a repair at cost possibly fingers crossed
That's kind of where I was thinking of going with it but probably do it by email with the pictures first then follow up with a call
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Old 15 February 2017, 03:16   #40
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That's kind of where I was thinking of going with it but probably do it by email with the pictures first then follow up with a call
YEP AGREE
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