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Old 23 March 2007, 11:06   #21
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You seem to have missed the point - I am trying to bat a few ideas around that could - maybe - save one of OUR live's one day - constructive arguments are the way to go. You can have the best boat in the world but can you GUARANTEE you will never have an accident?

What is so stupid about fins? I reckon if you had a pair handy(which many rib users do) then it would make swimming considerably easier - unless you know different!!!
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Old 23 March 2007, 11:17   #22
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With lifejackets on they would have found it even harder to swim. The bloke who survived eventually made it ashore. He was very close to the end - a lesser person would have been long gone which the report does mention.
Might be harder to swim with a lifejacket on, but it's a ffff-sight easier to sink without one!

Sounds like they both got very tired and at some point, both of them went under, rescusitated once, and failed the second - with a life jacket, the submergence wouldn't have happened.
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Old 23 March 2007, 11:36   #23
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Originally Posted by codprawn View Post
You seem to have missed the point - I am trying to bat a few ideas around that could - maybe - save one of OUR live's one day - constructive arguments are the way to go. You can have the best boat in the world but can you GUARANTEE you will never have an accident?

What is so stupid about fins? I reckon if you had a pair handy(which many rib users do) then it would make swimming considerably easier - unless you know different!!!
I dont think I have missed the point, the reason you had for starting this thread was to accuse the MAIB of sexing up an accident report. Having read through the whole thing my opinion is that you chose to totally ignore what would appear to be an extremely thorough investigation, which indicates the main contibutory factors for the accident to be what I have listed in my last post, in order to criticise the MAIB.
Having been shot down in flames by John you try to side step by spouting tripe about olympic swimmers not wearing lifejackets and then claim you were suggesting we all learn from the tragedy by putting our mobiles in plastic bags.
I believe you were trying to be controversial but ended up looking a berk. Flippers and plastic bags are no substitute for properly maintained lifejackets, flares (in date) an epirb and perhaps more importantly a boat which is properly maintained.
The fact is that the people on the Pamela appeared to have had none of the above, and tragically one of them will never have the opportunity learn from his mistakes. So if any of us can learn anything from this, which you claim to be trying to do, how about this;
Get the basics right and wear a life jacket, before you start buying flippers!
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Old 23 March 2007, 12:18   #24
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[url]The report also attacks the kind of bilge pumps they had fitted. They were 3x Rule 500gph automatics but wired to operate in manual mode only.
From the report:
The switches for the fish hold and aft compartment were 3-way rocker panel switches with manual off and automatic positions.

You're 1/3 right.


Quote:
They had flares in the cabin but the boat just sank to fast.
So what good are the fins going to do, besides taking up space?

Quote:
With the tides in the area they just couldn't get themselves to safety despite being very fit men. They had NO means of summoning help.
How did you come to the conclusion they were both very fit?

From the report:
He [captain] then made a very hurried and short “Mayday” call on the VHF radio.

Interestingly, this is the ony reference to the Mayday call. No mention if anyone heard it.

Quote:
I know mobile phones are no subsitute for a VHF but most crew and passengers will have them in their pockets at ALL times.
On a working boat? Not if you don't like replacing electronics every week.


The lifejacket question, I'll sort of agree with you. Yes, a lifejacket adds drag and bulk to a swimmer, which will slow him down. It also, though (and this is key) allows him to float high enough to breathe without expending energy.

Your analogy of Olympic swimmers or Channel swimmers is useless: Neither *has* to stay afloat for long periods of time with no aid nearby. Channel swimmers have a chase boat; Olympic swimmers have less than 50 meters to help.

Benc has it right; swimming backwards while buoyed by flotation keeps your mouth and nose higher above the waterline, and puts your feet deeper in the water, where they are more effective. Swimming with no buoyancy is very tiresome, hence the Olympic competitions. Wear the lifejacket. May slow you down, but it will keep you alive. And, should you expire, it will at least allow the S&R crews to locate your body.

jky
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Old 23 March 2007, 13:32   #25
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Originally Posted by Mugshot View Post
I dont think I have missed the point, the reason you had for starting this thread was to accuse the MAIB of sexing up an accident report. Having read through the whole thing my opinion is that you chose to totally ignore what would appear to be an extremely thorough investigation, which indicates the main contibutory factors for the accident to be what I have listed in my last post, in order to criticise the MAIB.
Having been shot down in flames by John you try to side step by spouting tripe about olympic swimmers not wearing lifejackets and then claim you were suggesting we all learn from the tragedy by putting our mobiles in plastic bags.
I believe you were trying to be controversial but ended up looking a berk. Flippers and plastic bags are no substitute for properly maintained lifejackets, flares (in date) an epirb and perhaps more importantly a boat which is properly maintained.
The fact is that the people on the Pamela appeared to have had none of the above, and tragically one of them will never have the opportunity learn from his mistakes. So if any of us can learn anything from this, which you claim to be trying to do, how about this;
Get the basics right and wear a life jacket, before you start buying flippers!
I mentioned the TWO specific points

1 - WHY state that the bilge pumps were SPECIFICALLY for jetskis?

2. There is NO evidence to support the fact they would have survived with lifejackets.

Also please tell me what difference in date or out of date flares would have made as they didn't have time to get them?

I was NOT trying to be controversial - as I said valuable lessons can be learnt from such reports IF people take the time to study them. I have re read the rport many times and could only find the above 2 points to disagree with.

You may ridicule my idea of putting a mobile phone in a plastic bag but if the well founded boat your are on suddenly hits a wave wrong and capsizes throwing you into the water you may just be glad of it!!! What uses are Epirbs - flares - vhf radios etc when they are in your upside down boat that is rapidly drifting away from you???
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Old 23 March 2007, 13:39   #26
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I think it is pretty fair to assume that 2 blokes who surived a lot longer than they should in cold water are pretty fit - which is what the report says.

As to a mobile phone maybe they are more popular in the UK - I know trawler men and lifeboat men who carry them at all times!!!

The point of fins on an open RIB is that if you capsize they may end up in the water with you - would make it a hell of a lot easier to swim to shore - unless you only find 1 and you go around in circles.
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Old 23 March 2007, 14:05   #27
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and if your aunty had balls she av have been your uncle...

there is no excuse for going to out sea without WEARING a life jacket - There is only one reason you put one on - and unfortunatly for the poor bloke who died in that report, he 'probably' in 'my' opinion would have prefered to have been wearing one, whether the other chap made it ashore or not.

I never take my jacket off whilst out unless i intentionally want to go in. I have fallen in with an Auto life Jacket a couple of times and know other people who have, one was even in port solent lock - a place where you REALLY WOULD want to be wearing one if you fell in. Out at sea is different when youve got nothing to cling onto - I would imagine the amount of energy waisted in the first 5 minutes just staying above the surface initially would be enough to drown most. Always wear a life Jacket.
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Old 23 March 2007, 14:09   #28
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You may ridicule my idea of putting a mobile phone in a plastic bag but if the well founded boat your are on suddenly hits a wave wrong and capsizes throwing you into the water you may just be glad of it!!! What uses are Epirbs - flares - vhf radios etc when they are in your upside down boat that is rapidly drifting away from you??? [/QUOTE]


The point of fins on an open RIB is that if you capsize they may end up in the water with you - would make it a hell of a lot easier to swim to shore - unless you only find 1 and you go around in circles.


So your fins float up to where you have landed and the EPIRB has sunk without trace....
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Old 23 March 2007, 14:23   #29
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and if your aunty had balls she av have been your uncle...

there is no excuse for going to out sea without WEARING a life jacket - There is only one reason you put one on - and unfortunatly for the poor bloke who died in that report, he 'probably' in 'my' opinion would have prefered to have been wearing one, whether the other chap made it ashore or not.

I never take my jacket off whilst out unless i intentionally want to go in. I have fallen in with an Auto life Jacket a couple of times and know other people who have, one was even in port solent lock - a place where you REALLY WOULD want to be wearing one if you fell in. Out at sea is different when youve got nothing to cling onto - I would imagine the amount of energy waisted in the first 5 minutes just staying above the surface initially would be enough to drown most. Always wear a life Jacket.
Would you wear a lifejacket in a Sunseeker 65 at anchor when you are tucked up in bed for the night? Truthfully?

Do you wear a lifejacket on a cross channel ferry? Do you wear one on a cruise ship along the thames or on a gondola in Venice? Of course you don't!!!

Obviously most people who go out on RIBs were lifejackets - and quite rightly!!! That is NOT the point I am trying to make but as usual people would rather just go on the offensive.

Sadly most accidents occur when least expected - as you say in solent lock they are vital - to be honest many accidents happen on the pontoon - it is very easy to slip and hit your head - so where do you draw the line?
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Old 23 March 2007, 14:24   #30
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You may ridicule my idea of putting a mobile phone in a plastic bag but if the well founded boat your are on suddenly hits a wave wrong and capsizes throwing you into the water you may just be glad of it!!! What uses are Epirbs - flares - vhf radios etc when they are in your upside down boat that is rapidly drifting away from you???



The point of fins on an open RIB is that if you capsize they may end up in the water with you - would make it a hell of a lot easier to swim to shore - unless you only find 1 and you go around in circles.


So your fins float up to where you have landed and the EPIRB has sunk without trace.... [/QUOTE]

if the EPIRB was in a cabin or locker quite possibly - or attached to your liferaft which is still under your RIB!!!
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