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Old 20 November 2007, 11:31   #21
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Ian

Im sorry your "still pissed". Thank you for your discression regarding the company involved, however I think I should come forward and discuss this issue. Firstly your comments regarding trade passing comments recommendations are very true, however both Lost Boy and Niamph are both genuine customers and have no trade or social connections to us (thanks guys for your recommendations).

I remember after your course (2005) reading your feedback form and our Chief Instructor emailing you with the offer of a replacement course. We accepted at the time that the course had not been up to standard (due to the boat) and partly based on your feedback sold that RIB and replaced it with something bigger.

I remember that the boat had been recently cleaned and anti fouled (2 months ish) and in fact the problem was the Ribtec 4.7/ Honda 50HP 4 stroke combo was rather slow with 4 blokes (instructor plus three) on board. Following your course we restricted the number of students on board to 2 and put the boat on the market. Based on the reply you sent to our email we genuinely believed you were happy.

Following this RIBnet discussion I have dug through our old files and re-read the feedback forms of all three students on the course (yourself, James and Mark).

Mark's comments were "Excellent, informative and comprehensive in every respect and on the smiley section of our form he ticked the top box for every cateogory including "quality of boats", James also ticked the top box for every section again including "Quality of boats", his comments were "great fun, really enjoyed the class and learned a lot". Intrestingly James has returned to us over the following two years and has taken another 4 courses.

All three of you received the same course on the same boat and it is important to us that you are all happy customers. Following your comments at the time we spoke to the instructor who told us the boat had just planed however it came off the plane very easily. As I have said above we acted upon your comments but clearly not to your satisfaction. Clearly we misunderstood your email reply to us where you thanked us for the offer of a free course and said you had what you needed (the certificate).

I can see now that a replacement Level 2 Course was not what you were after but it seemed the logical thing to offer somone who said his course had not been up to scratch. All that aside I dont want to make excuses, I would rather have happy customers who felt they had received value for money. you are after all an important part of our business and lives.

Although this goes back over two years, I would like the opportunity to prove to you that we do not scrimp on kit/boats and we do learn from our failings, I am unsure where you stand now so rather than offer you a free intermediate course by way of apology I am offering you a free one or 2 day RYA powerboat or shorebased course at our centre for yourself or another family member. If you would like to take us up on this offer just email or call 02380 231122 or coaching@stormforce.biz

Hopefully I can fix this problem and their will be no hard feelings either way between us and you. I thank you for your discresion, and until I pmed you did not realise that we were the school you were referring to. I thought however it was appropriate to bring this into the open. We are after all only as good as our last **** up.
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Old 20 November 2007, 11:48   #22
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good on you- I'd penned a few words to this debate before but decided it didnt need my bit, however, some thoughts; I like to think that we have a good system in the RYA PB scheme, and the quality of boats/ tuition etc. has come on a great deal in the last, say 5-10 years, I remember long ago, as a trainer having discussions that we had some poor PBI's, and it was because, we the trainers were passing them, the scheme has def. moved forwards. We also have moved so much on boats used, but there I think we have one of the burning issues, a great boat to one student, will not be suitable to another, I think back to when we first started running advanced courses, so many folk sat on tubes in the dark, makes me shiver, give me a seat anyday!
We have a scheme, which is deliverable by many folk, using different locations, kit, staff, and thats before we ask the students what they hope to get from the course; then we try and oblige, not easy, we all strive to give participants the best we can, thats most suitable to them so they go away better, positive etc, etc, and good on you for coming forward within the discussion.
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Old 20 November 2007, 12:10   #23
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Doug,

Well done
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Old 20 November 2007, 12:36   #24
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Doug. Well Done. The worst complaints are the ones we don't know about.

Ian. A generous offer from Doug. Hope you two can find a way forward.

Eilean. Standards are still not high enough in PBI's. (even a few dodgy trainers out there?) Will be intersting to see what the new pre assesment for PBI course will do, but I understand that this will be focused on boat handling only. An assesment of basic interpersonal skills would be as, if not more useful. What do you think?
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Old 20 November 2007, 12:42   #25
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Blimey, I'd never have guessed that it would have been Doug as what is described is so different from ours (and a few others that have now been through courses with him and his team on our recommendation).

Andy, our instructor, was superb. The boat issue didn't come into it as we used our own, but once again we chose Doug because of the fact that they ran one so would know it well! This proved a sensible choice (our was quicker )

I think both of you come out of this with credit as the both the "tight lips" and "open and honest" from both of you was clearly the route to go to get a (potentially) satisfactory result.
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Old 20 November 2007, 13:17   #26
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Griff marine works from Cowes but also runs course Hamble side. Good man
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Old 20 November 2007, 15:05   #27
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I think that wherever we find ourselves there will always be 'dodgy' people in all levels, at least the trainers go through practical revalidation every 5 years, and if not up to the job, then its a quiet word, and maybe a 12 month trial then its out!, so hopefully we are weeding them out, same with advanced instructors really, if you think what the way in was like when the award first came into being.
having just run a pbi, if we'd had pre assessment, at least one of the candidates wouldnt have been there, or and this is more likely, he would have gone away after a pre assessment, and spent time practicing so that he was up to speed when the course took place, instead of needing a action plan afterwards to be able to get to standard. I agree on the skills, I knew at least one dinghy coach who is a brilliant sailor, but people skills/ shorebased teaching was appalling; on the job re validation would suss this out very quickly.
i think i've got this right; but correct me if i'm wrong, cos I might have the wrong end of the stick; but as a trainer, am i not already checking that they have the ability to deliver the 'other parts' of stuff involved in a course, and if they can't deliver theory/ shorebased, or demo practical, or teach, or be patient with students (difficult in a short time of a course ) then they don't necessarily become pbi's,
mind you I've now walked into my own minefield i think, and yep some of the trainers, just might not be doing what they are supposed to be; but we are getting better surely because all courses are now moderated, whereas they didnt used to be??

do you think the pre assessment will be useful??
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Old 20 November 2007, 15:13   #28
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And in the other corner...........

I don't want a public debate. I feel I made my point without a personal angle. I was obviously not going to name you, but am impressed that you have gone public in this way. I thank you for your kind offer, but will decline, it was after all 2 years ago, and wish you good luck with your business.
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Old 20 November 2007, 15:29   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eilean mor View Post

having just run a pbi, if we'd had pre assessment, at least one of the candidates wouldnt have been there, or and this is more likely, he would have gone away after a pre assessment, and spent time practicing so that he was up to speed when the course took place, instead of needing a action plan afterwards to be able to get to standard.

i think i've got this right; but correct me if i'm wrong, cos I might have the wrong end of the stick; but as a trainer, am i not already checking that they have the ability to deliver the 'other parts' of stuff involved in a course, and if they can't deliver theory/ shorebased, or demo practical, or teach, or be patient with students (difficult in a short time of a course ) then they don't necessarily become pbi's,

do you think the pre assessment will be useful??
Yeah, I firmly believe that it is far to easy to become a PBI. Pre assessment is definitely a move in the right direction.

If they can't do the things you mentioned in your second paragraph then they certainly shouldn't pass. but maybe should go on to an in depth enabling course.

For me the important thing for an instructor is not to take your ego in to the class room or boat.

Eilean how W of Scotland are you, r you a lighthouse keeper perchance
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Old 20 November 2007, 15:42   #30
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my west of Scotland is sound of jura, etc, so nice waves and tides, and maybe the only boat out there sort of stuff - coaching is the hobby not the job, that tends to be behind a computer screen, or heading east to get to Glasgow.
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