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Old 30 June 2012, 22:47   #1
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Regulation of UK Leisure Boating - a good idea?

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Originally Posted by tonto View Post
Because IMO has already spent oodles of money on making the specs, as laid down in the colregs, Annex II if i am correct, plus a whole bunch of other technical comitees. The specs are there, just comply with them, not make a whole set of new paperwork to comply with (and push the price up)

If RYA want to promote safety, then push for all vessel operators to have certificates of competency, and make it mandatory for ALL craft to carry safety equipment, and obey the alcohol limits.

There are many posts on here where people have been killed/seriously injured/having to be rescued and not wearing lifejackets, or having basic safety equipment, or have inadequate training, but I have not seen a single post (open to be corrected) where an accident is a result of having the wrong shade of green in the sidelights (if carried even)

IMHO tackle the biggest subjects 1st, then spend money on the piddly little stuff afterwards.
The trouble is there are enough regulations to comply with in this country as it is. Boating is one of the last bastions of freedom we have. I don't care how much the RYA spends on LED nav light standardisation or if it adds a few quid to the cost of them.

I would care a lot if they started pushing for certificates of competency that they are the body for and made it mandatory for safety equipment to be carried that would then imply some sort of BSS test as is required on most inland water ways. That will cost people a heck of a lot more and possibly push the expense of owning a boat too high for some people. Then there is the cost of policing it
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Old 01 July 2012, 00:07   #2
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I would care a lot if they started pushing for certificates of competency that they are the body for and made it mandatory for safety equipment to be carried that would then imply some sort of BSS test as is required on most inland water ways. That will cost people a heck of a lot more and possibly push the expense of owning a boat too high for some people. Then there is the cost of policing it
Hmmmmm cant agree i am afraid.

We have car driving licences, and MOT's and breathalysers for a reason. They save lives. If it means some people cannot afford a car, well I am sorry about that, but that is the way things are.

Most people who use small craft do so for pleasure, they dont need it for travelling to work etc etc, so if it becomes too expensive to be safe and to help others to be safe, then they should not use the craft.

It is not just the vessel operator who is at risk by not having any training, or safety equipment, their passengers and other craft are put into danger, plus all the other people who have to come out to rescue them when they screw up.

The RYA oppose any for of alcohol limits for private craft operators, but operating a RIB which is capable of speeds in excess of 40Knots whilst under the influence is just plain crazy, so why oppose the proposed regulations? why not require a PB level1? or a minimum VHF, lifejacket and flares?
The RYA is not doing so because they are not concerned with real unpopular safety decisions, just money making and keeping their members happy, and thus ensuring their contributions.

Now I will climb off my soapbox!
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Old 01 July 2012, 04:28   #3
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A reckless car driver kills himself and innocent other road users. A reckless boat owner primarily only risks his own life. If the seas were as busy as the roads, I would think differently.
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Old 01 July 2012, 05:53   #4
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A reckless boat owner primarily only risks his own life. If the seas were as busy as the roads, I would think differently.
Surely that depends on if they have passengers? Or if another vessel is involved? Over the past few years I have read about far too many alcohol related leisure boating deaths/accidents. There's really no excuse for it.
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Old 01 July 2012, 06:05   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tonto View Post
Hmmmmm cant agree i am afraid.

We have car driving licences, and MOT's and breathalysers for a reason. They save lives. If it means some people cannot afford a car, well I am sorry about that, but that is the way things are.

Most people who use small craft do so for pleasure, they dont need it for travelling to work etc etc, so if it becomes too expensive to be safe and to help others to be safe, then they should not use the craft.

It is not just the vessel operator who is at risk by not having any training, or safety equipment, their passengers and other craft are put into danger, plus all the other people who have to come out to rescue them when they screw up.

The RYA oppose any for of alcohol limits for private craft operators, but operating a RIB which is capable of speeds in excess of 40Knots whilst under the influence is just plain crazy, so why oppose the proposed regulations? why not require a PB level1? or a minimum VHF, lifejacket and flares?
The RYA is not doing so because they are not concerned with real unpopular safety decisions, just money making and keeping their members happy, and thus ensuring their contributions.

Now I will climb off my soapbox!
And I'll get on it

Then you end up with a system similar to France, where you are regulated & controlled to hell. All boats have to be registered & taxed, you have to attend "bateau ecole" i.e. boat school & pass a test & be "Leesonced". You are restricted as to how far you can go in certain types of boat. Most of us on here would be restricted to 5 miles off shore. There would be a whole new branch of police set up to control it all:- "Gendarme Maritime" I could go on. After all that, they are the biggest set of Muppets afloat Feck me, if you think testing a few lights is expensive.... brace yourself.
The RYA has resisted compulsory testing & regulation of boaters for years, promoting "Education not regulation" I for one, educated myself in the ways of the sea by doing my Coastal Skipper, I wanted to do it for my own sake & for that reason I enjoyed it & took it in. Had I been forced to do a bullshit, dumbed down, idiot, failproof course (anybody that has attended a modern training course will know what I mean) I would have sat there, dis-interested, bored, in one ear, out the other & then gone out on my Jetski.
Standardising & testing products adds pennies to the overall cost. Standards are all we have to ensure some degree of security in getting what we are paying for. Never heard of British Standard, Kitemark, DIN, ISO. Just about everything we use has to conform to some standard, be it drinking water to mobile phones. There are reports that some of the early LED nav lights were difficult to see from certain angles, especially if the boat was rolling. Also they were too bright which washed out the colours making it difficult to differentiate between green & white. LEDs are completely different technology to filament, just as filament were different to oil lamps, so the standards need updating. Do you think that todays cars would be allowed on the road if they only complied to standards from the 1960s?
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Old 01 July 2012, 06:05   #6
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Surely that depends on if they have passengers? Or if another vessel is involved? Over the past few years I have read about far too many alcohol related leisure boating deaths/accidents. There's really no excuse for it.
+1

Sort out the big issues, and safety aspects 1st. I see the majority of ribnetters are actively encouraging the use of lifejackets, and safe ribbing already, there should be nothing to fear from a legal requirement to have safety equipment and training. (and no alcohol whilst conning).

I have only been here a few months, but have read postings about a number of accidents, some relating to alcohol, others lack of training or safety equipment. All of which tie up the emergency services for hours, which puts them at risk, and also takes resources away from other incidents.

Being safe AND having fun is what it is all about surely?
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Old 01 July 2012, 06:21   #7
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And I'll get on it

Then you end up with a system similar to France, where you are regulated & controlled to hell. All boats have to be registered & taxed, you have to attend "bateau ecole" i.e. boat school & pass a test & be "Leesonced". You are restricted as to how far you can go in certain types of boat. Most of us on here would be restricted to 5 miles off shore. There would be a whole new branch of police set up to control it all:- "Gendarme Maritime" I could go on. After all that, they are the biggest set of Muppets afloat Feck me, if you think testing a few lights is expensive.... brace yourself.
The RYA has resisted compulsory testing & regulation of boaters for years, promoting "Education not regulation" I for one, educated myself in the ways of the sea by doing my Coastal Skipper, I wanted to do it for my own sake & for that reason I enjoyed it & took it in. Had I been forced to do a bullshit, dumbed down, idiot, failproof course (anybody that has attended a modern training course will know what I mean) I would have sat there, dis-interested, bored, in one ear, out the other & then gone out on my Jetski.
Standardising & testing products adds pennies to the overall cost. Standards are all we have to ensure some degree of security in getting what we are paying for. Never heard of British Standard, Kitemark, DIN, ISO. Just about everything we use has to conform to some standard, be it drinking water to mobile phones. There are reports that some of the early LED nav lights were difficult to see from certain angles, especially if the boat was rolling. Also they were too bright which washed out the colours making it difficult to differentiate between green & white. LEDs are completely different technology to filament, just as filament were different to oil lamps, so the standards need updating. Do you think that todays cars would be allowed on the road if they only complied to standards from the 1960s?
You should be a politician PD BUT I AGREE
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Old 01 July 2012, 07:15   #8
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So sub standard LED lighting will screw up the on board electronics.

How many kids have been on Fleabay or visited Halfrauds to purchase every colour of "playtime running lights" for their Corsas?

All of them must therefore be facing the imminent danger of an exploding Kenwood bass box which is taking up 90% of boot space once the "cool blues" are turned on.

Loads of dodgy lighting comes out of China and gets around every regulation known to man by clearly stating that its for decorative and show purposes only.

Regulating the boat lighting business will acheive absolutely nothing in terms of improved safety. As good as the intentions may be, and to a point I agree with the reasoning, sub standard lighting will still be readily available and will continue to be installed as there is no practical way of policing it.

Leisure boaters are to a degree a law unto themselves, as already stated anyone can buy and launch with no training whatsoever. I've lost count of the number of children (and adults) I've seen without buoyancy aids, driving their Fletcher hard boats at stupid speeds with the bow pointing skyward after they bought it the week before for 500 quid on ebay.
If the point of the RYA discussion is safety, they really ought to be thinking again and spending money on informing the boating public with regard to education & training before deciding if the nav lights are green or red enough. How many "ebay boaters" would even have a clue which light went where anyway ?
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Old 01 July 2012, 07:15   #9
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You should be a politician PD BUT I AGREE
I can't beleeeve that people are arguing against rules that are there to protect us, the punters, from unscrupulous manufacturers. Whilst at the same time advocating more testing, taxing & bureaucracy for ourselves. They must either work for Lamp manufacturers or training agencies.
Want more rules? here ya go I'll give it a couple of years before the French have to carry these on boats as well.
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Old 01 July 2012, 07:27   #10
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It's very Chicken & Egg P-D, the French had some of the most p1ssed up drivers in (Western) Europe so this was, I feel, the inevitable result.

So if I understand my argument correctly, what I'm saying (in so far as I'm saying anything) is that:

No Enforcement leads to problems that lead to Enforcement.

No regulation leads to problems that lead to Enforcement.

Voluntary training/regulation leads to problems that lead to Enforcement.

So far as I can tell, all roads lead to Enforcement
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