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Old 03 July 2012, 08:10   #51
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This is the kind of life endangering events that happen, and not just abroad.

A basic awareness of their environment (waves to big, wind too strong for novices), coupled with a baby cham or two, the out come could have been very different.

Shouldn't there be a simple proficiency test, operated on-line, with multipul guess Q&A's, and a print out certificate.

Yes it can be flouted, but simply raising the awareness of it may (and I guess it is a big may) make people take note.

Call the coastguard! Maria Fowler is rescued from her jet ski after she and her friend get stuck in strong winds and high waves | Mail Online
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Old 03 July 2012, 08:50   #52
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Originally Posted by shipmates2
.... experienced mariners(most wouldnt go to sea with 1 engine),
Where does that statistic come from? I know hundreds, possibly thousands, of highly experienced and professional mariners who regularly go to sea with one engine. For many of them it has been that way for years and years

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but remember most incidents occur within a mile of the coast....the most dangerous area to have problems in
I'm struggling with this statement too. Do you mean that it's the most dangerous area because it's close to land, and land isn't a very nice thing to bump into? If so, I agree to some extent, but it cuts both ways. It's also often the easiest place and almost always the quickest place to get rescuers to you.
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Old 03 July 2012, 11:10   #53
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One advantage with having an aux engine especially on a sailing boat is that it saves having to call out the lifeboat for a tow back to port if the wind drops ,
, because it would have made you late for work or into the office the next morning

End of the day you can be the most experienced have as many tests, rules ,regulations ,permits, qualifications ,licences , but if the nobber,s been drinking or doped up on the so called recreational drugs which now seems to be the (norm )for all types of society nowadays its not going to stop accidents or Incidents from happening ,

looking at incident reports a lot of drownings, groundings or accidents seem to have drugs or booze involved somewhere down the line ,,commercial or leisure .
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Old 04 July 2012, 19:19   #54
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Its a sad state of affair when the people of this country are asking to be regulated more. We are already strangled by regulations and taxes that are used to to pay for the inefficient and often ineffective policing of these regulations.

Contrary to the posters who refer to lots of accidents at sea there are actually very few fatal accidents involving leisure boaters, in fact we have one of the lowest accidental fatality rate for recreational boating (compared to % of boaters) in the world. And a much lower rates that Italy and France (both strict government licensing schemes).

One of the reasons that I, the RYA and many recreational boaters object to strict alcohol limits for recreational boating is that many of us spend time living on board our yachts. Would it be fait to breathalyse you in your own home? A bigger reason we are against this kind of regulation is that we do not believe there is a problem that needs fixing. There will always be the those who think that because they hear about isolated incidents there must be a vast problem but anyone who takes the time to research the matter will discover the problem is very small. These same people will try to compare the sea to the roads. IMHO if you treat the sea like a road then you are more likely to get yourself into trouble.

It is a fundamental decision of a skipper as to whether or not he feels it is safe for him to go boating. Where as a driver is told by someone else if his cars is safe, if the roads are safe, if he has to slow down today because of the weather and so on. When that driver breaks down he climbs out of his car and waits by the roads side. Boating does not generally offer its skipper a wait by the road side option when he forgets to fuel up. If you try to apply the mind numbing regulatory system we have on our roads and take away the need for thinking then I believe that you will end up with a generation of skippers who will not be fit to be skippers (check out our Euro cousins for proof of this).

The fact that you hear stories about drunk boating incidents is because they are rare enough to be of interest. Many on here will remember a few famous accident that have happened over the years but they do equate to a a few over many years. On the roads however drink driving accidents are too common to even report in the media a lot of the time.
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Old 04 July 2012, 19:53   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug Stormforce View Post

Contrary to the posters who refer to lots of accidents at sea there are actually very few fatal accidents involving leisure boaters,

One of the reasons that I, the RYA and many recreational boaters object to strict alcohol limits for recreational boating is that many of us spend time living on board our yachts. Would it be fait to breathalyse you in your own home?

It is a fundamental decision of a skipper as to whether or not he feels it is safe for him to go boating.
If you try to apply the mind numbing regulatory system we have on our roads and take away the need for thinking then I believe that you will end up with a generation of skippers who will not be fit to be skippers (check out our Euro cousins for proof of this).
.

The MAIB, would beg to differ about fatal accidents involving drinking, and one such statistic was 45 in 6 years, and that is just fatalities. They should know as they investigate them all. The other incidents that do not involve loss of life or serious injury may well not be reported (again as suggested by the MAIB)

The silly argument put forward by the RYA is just that silly. If people live on their boats, and they are safely moored, then there is no issue, so the point is moot. It is an excuse to allow some people to decide that they want to be able to take the conn even if knowing they are under the influence. A similarity would be for Mobile home owners. Are they breathalysed while parked up for the night enjoying a glass of wine? of course not, and any sensible person would not argue for it to be so. The offense should be to be operating a vessel whilst under the influence.

You are correct, it is a skippers fundamental decision to go to sea, and i wonder how that decision is reached? He cannot make a proper decision if he is drunk, and apart from that, a lot of it is experience, and training. How else is a new owner of a vessel going to be able to decide what is safe or not, (at least until they have the experience to judge for themselves) As you rightly point out, there are very few laybys to pull into and park up, so the result is that the emergency services get called out in atrocious weather, putting their own lives at risk, because some numpty didnt know what they were doing, or ran out of fuel.

Basic training should be manatory, and I do mean basic, I am not suggesting an ocean going skippers course here, but a PB 1, or 2 would not be such an imposition on people.

Of course if it was manditory then it might well be taken out of the RYA's hands to administrate and run, thus depriving them of their lucrative business opportunities.
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Old 05 July 2012, 02:55   #56
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The MAIB, would beg to differ about fatal accidents involving drinking, and one such statistic was 45 in 6 years, and that is just fatalities. They should know as they investigate them all. The other incidents that do not involve loss of life or serious injury may well not be reported (again as suggested by the MAIB)
Ok, let's use your figures. Now compare them to the number of alcohol related fatalities on the roads and try and tell us drink drive laws have solved this problem.

Making a catch all regulation, for which the policing and burocracy associated with it will cost us all a fortune does not in itself stop people drinking.
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Old 05 July 2012, 03:07   #57
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Ok, let's use your figures. Now compare them to the number of alcohol related fatalities on the roads and try and tell us drink drive laws have solved this problem.

Making a catch all regulation, for which the policing and burocracy associated with it will cost us all a fortune does not in itself stop people drinking.
Not my figures at all, they are from MAIB.

However 45 people in 6 years is low compared to road users, but then take the number of lesiure boaters and compare it to the number of cars on the roads on a daily basis. As the MAIB have also said, it is also probable that the incidents of damage, and minor injuries caused are not reported, therefore are not available, but should be considered to be quite high.

Just because "only" 9 people a year are killed, does that mean it should be accepted to be drunk in charge?

I am not in favour of stopping drinking, only to help stop people being drunk in charge.

Oh, and to have some rudimentary training.

I really do wonder why someone who provides training would have such strong views against sensible safety and training suggestions?
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Old 05 July 2012, 03:42   #58
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Whilst navigating down the East coast on our Round Britain trip it was obvious that every single fishing boat in the area (despite regulation) had failed to turn their AIS on - it's very unnerving to see fishing boats pass by lifting and setting crab pots in thick fog! It seems that if they turned it on the competition would see where they are fishing!
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Old 05 July 2012, 03:56   #59
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Licence- Good or bad?

I have mixed views on whether a boat owner should be regulated any more for leisure users BUT I believe that all boat owners should have some form of training. This is tainted by my father who sailed all his life and learnt everything as he stepped up from dinghys to yachts and refused training, would never wear a lifejacket sailing single handed whilst offshore but insisted he did this for enjoyment.

This can be highlighted by a boat owner on The Hamble who I watched being launched off a dry stack (26ft cruiser).

A guy was at the helm, a lady was tasked with releasing the ropes. The boat was bow directly into the wind and a clear run into the fairway. Unfortunately the crew member released the bow rope first, the boat swung quickly to starboard forced out by the wind and tide in the same direction. The crew member walked to the stern and undid the stern line and tried to pull the boat back! She jumped on the stern and the baot went forward and was blown back onto an adjacent pontoon where a boat was moored(no damage yet).

With the help of others the boat was moved back into the fairway where the helm went close to the mooring pontoons and was blown heavily onto the first one with a loud bang and gouging noise- The response- more speed, the result hit the next mooring pontoon head with the same result. I think at this point the crew were shouting at each other when the helm was turned into the fairway and it appeared they wanted to moor in a position opposite. Luckily they understood the boat would not turn and managed to run into the river and turn around in open space BUT returned into the fairway and started to aim for the mooring they wanted opposite the orrigianl launch site.

Here they managed to enter correctly bow first into the wind and tide and alongside the pontoon. Good I thought all sorted maybe this was a one off.

Next I heard shouting. The crew member was off the boat, tied the stern! and you guess the bow swings in wind and tide across the mooring. His boat has a nice sharp anchor on the bow which hit a recently refurbished carft in the adjacent mooring and damaged it. I managed to get help to them and the boat was secured and it stayed here all weekend!! with those aboard living in the marina 50 yards from launch.

Whilst liaising with marina staff I discover they do this regularly and the marina offer training!!!. Yesterday I saw the boat ashore on the drystack and the boat is fairly new BUT battered around each stern and bow quarter.

Is this a reason for enforceable training/licence? They have ignored all attempts to help/advice.

I know there are plenty of examples available but these people would be classed as intelligent and wanting to enjoy the boating experience but through no training are a total liability and cannot have enjoyed this mess they created.
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Old 05 July 2012, 04:18   #60
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I know we shouldn't keep comparing this to cars and the roads, but just spend a few minutes in a car park watching all the people that can't reverse park their vehicle..... and they should all have been through a fairly rigorous training system before taking to the wheel. Some people just don't benefit from training and others are just muppets.
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