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Old 08 May 2013, 19:00   #61
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Originally Posted by Clamchowder View Post
So if you want to swap drivers you have to swap lifejackets?
No - multiple kill cords
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Old 08 May 2013, 19:02   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Starovich View Post
Now there is an idea that could work. plug/clip stitched to the LJ which completes the circuit when plugged into the kill cord?
I've been thinking about the practicalities of that one. There's no reliable way to do it. Open contacts will fail by the nature of them being open-unless there was a radical redesign to a killcord.

The only real way I can think of would be a magnet/reed switch setup, but you don't want that near a compass and it'd mean wires that are constantly flexing.
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Old 08 May 2013, 19:09   #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Poly View Post
http://www.theaa.com/public_affairs/...elt-report.pdf

Suggests that (1) 300+ lives a year are saves by seatbelts (2) about 14% of the population are apparently intermittent users! although it seems only about 5% of drivers are when driving. (3) its estimated another 300 lives a year could be saved if there was 100% compliance with this law. (4) Professional drivers seem less likely to wear than car drivers.

So: - the scale of the problem is rather different (probably 500x more impact from car law?)
- its much easier to enforce on the road (existing infrastructure, identifiable drivers, identifiable vehicles, defined roads v's open sea)
- even where there is enforcement and recognition of the benefits compliance is far from 100%.

Actually - the bloody annoying "pinging" that modern cars do probably has more to do with compliance than the vague possibility you might get 60 fine if you happen to get caught!
As i said before, go put a human life quota on it then.
How may have to die before a change is made?
Would your attitude change if you had to go and sit with the families involved and say "sorry your loss is not sufficient to make any changes in the way we work, only when X more people have died will we do anything."?
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Old 08 May 2013, 19:14   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Starovich View Post
As i said before, go put a human life quota on it then.
How may have to die before a change is made?
Would your attitude change if you had to go and sit with the families involved and say "sorry your loss is not sufficient to make any changes in the way we work, only when X more people have died will we do anything."?
If you legislate against everything that you might get hurt by, your boat would be illegal.
Just wait til some nobber gets an idea like 'compulsory minimum freeboard' in his head because you 'might fall off it'.

It is impossible and impractical to wrap people in cotton wool.
To quote Douglas Adams:-
"a common mistake that people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools."
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Old 08 May 2013, 19:38   #65
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Kill Cord Wear Rates and UK seatbelts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Poly View Post
(1) 300+ lives a year are saves by seatbelts
Just noting that is an England or UK seat belt stat. Here in the U.S. with some more open spaces to get wound up in we save a lot more lives with seat belts.

Similarly, I think your kill cord wear rate is much higher than hours. We did some work with the U.S. Coast Guard accident reports trying to calculate what percent of operators were wearing kill cords in any kind of accident and estimated about 3 to 20 percent depending on which set of assumptions you use.
Boat Kill Switch Wear Rate Estimated from U.S. Coast Guard BARD Data :: Propeller Guard Information Center

I suspect your kill cord wear rate is considerably higher.

gary
propellersafety.com
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Old 08 May 2013, 19:42   #66
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I won't be renewing my subscription to PBR, but that is just because the content is dull, unimaginative and repetitive. (Apart from PG's) The boat reviews are descriptive but provide no insight, the pictures are too small and don't show the things described in the articles. 3 pages on how to fashion a switch panel in Perspex (useful to about the same number of people) lightweight comparisons of electrical equipment with no testing, gleaned from the promo material and pictures of HMS in free gear because the magazine has an article about the manufacturer. Not to mention the amateur diatribes of "travels", (giving column space to a group of individuals who set off across the channel, with insufficient fuel, in poor conditions in fading light is not really flying the safety banner is it?) longwinded reviews of places you will never visit, and never ending promomotion of round Ireland in a small underpowered rib (with 20% off no doubt) need I continue...

With regard to regulation, the cost of policing compulsory use of safety equipment would be prohibitive and could result in the regular boarding of boats by CG or harbour police as in the USA to check documents and safety equipment with fines for non compliance.

Education yes, regulation no. I totally agree with the sentiment and have reviewed my own approach to safety on board, however the recent terrible accident should not be allowed to precipitate an ill conceived stampede into unenforceable and expensive bureaucracy.
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Old 08 May 2013, 19:51   #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Starovich View Post
As i said before, go put a human life quota on it then.
How may have to die before a change is made?
ALL regulatory changes have to balance the cost and the benefits. e.g. preventing one fatal accident on UK roads is "worth" about 2m: http://www.roadsafetyfoundation.org/...ng%20money.pdf

Preventing a fatality in the workplace is I believe usually valued at closer to 1m.

The concept of Value of Statistical Life may seem absurd because when looking at a specific circumstance we default to 'spare no cost' to save that individual but of course we do take risks all the time and cost of avoiding the riks is part of our subconscious balancing act. This article explains the concept quite well: http://www.cato.org/sites/cato.org/f...12/v27n4-8.pdf

However clearly legislators can't protect us from every possible risk, so they need a mechanism to decide which regulatory changes bring about a desirable benefit and to prioritise which changes they should introduce.

Quote:
Would your attitude change if you had to go and sit with the families involved and say "sorry your loss is not sufficient to make any changes in the way we work, only when X more people have died will we do anything."?
I'm a heartless, in human robot so have no great issue with doing this job... ...but (1) clearly thats not how you present it; (2) perhaps it offers some comfort that it was a 'freak accident' rather than something society could protect you from? (3) a change in legislation isn't going to bring loved ones back (4) I accept the harsh reality of the world is you have to spend your pennies where the greatest benefit will arrise.
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Old 09 May 2013, 00:47   #68
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I wear a seat belt because not wearing one 'feels' wrong. I have this internal alarm sounding in my head if I cannot feel the reassuring tightness across chest and legs.
Rather than a simple clip on the end of the kill cord, through which the cord can slide and provide no real perssure, is a positive attachment that provides a simple slight pressure possible? I am thinking of something like a simple adjustable strap, with kill cord attached, that stays with the helmsman. The point being that it is fixed when fitted, and requires positive action to release the pressure it provides.
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Old 09 May 2013, 01:53   #69
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Don't forget requiring kill cords is one step away from requiring life jackets for everyone at all times. Far more lives would be saved if life jackets were required. Hey why not require a life jacket for anyone going near the water? After all 70% of all drownings would be preventable if they were wearing a life jacket.

I force myself to wear my kill cord whenever I am moving my inflatable boat because there is a high chance of falling off. While driving a competition wakeboard boat though I will never wear a kill cord.

Not everything is black and white. We don't need a rule for kill cords. Now requiring they be installed on every new pleasure craft boat I believe has already been put in place, as I can't think of a new boat that doesn't come with one, but I could be wrong.
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Old 09 May 2013, 02:21   #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Poly View Post
No - multiple kill cords
But the killcord is stitched to the lifejacket (I was responding to Starovich's comment, though I forgot to quote it). So every lifejacket needs to have a killcord stitched to it just in case the wearer wants/needs to drive the boat?

Still, I'm sure it can be disabled with a bent paperclip, rendering it more dangerous than it was in the first place. Of course said paperclip will need to be removed at MOT time (we'll be needing a compulsory MOT to make sure all this new safety kit works ) in much the same way I used to have to take my race exhaust off my bike for the MOT.
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