Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
 
Old 29 September 2008, 17:58   #11
Member
 
The Grocer's Avatar
 
Country: UK - Scotland
Town: Kildonan, Arran
Boat name: Cowal (& Bennan)
Make: Quinquari Humber/RC
Length: 6m +
Engine: Suzuki DF150/DF175x2
MMSI: 235036953
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 296
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nos4r2 View Post
Wouldn't you need a 275N jacket over that?
Yup. Either that or a very long snorkel...
__________________

__________________
Russell
The Grocer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29 September 2008, 18:01   #12
Member
 
Country: UK - Wales
Town: swansea
Boat name: Too Blue
Make: BLANK
Length: 8m +
Engine: Suzuki DT225
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 12,791
The suit may not right an unconcious person but it will definitely keep you afloat. In fact you may be better off without a lifejacket. As most people differ greatly in their make up then the only real solution is to test it out!!!

Looking at the design these suits are not meant to be like a dry suit so it doesn't really matter wether it's a 1 piece or a 2 piece - they are designed to trap water a bit like a wetsuit.

An angler was saved by a floatation suit recently at Ogmore Deeps near Bridgend.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/south_east/7161602.stm

Considering it was December, a F8 and he was in the water for 20 mins it's not bad going!!!
__________________

__________________
codprawn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29 September 2008, 18:59   #13
Member
 
martini's Avatar
 
Country: UK - Channel Islands
Town: jersey
Boat name: Martini II
Make: Arctic 28/FC470
Length: 8m +
Engine: twin 225Opti/50hp 2t
MMSI: 235067688
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 3,021
Quote:
The suit may not right an unconcious person but it will definitely keep you afloat.
Floating face down is as much use as sinking!

Quote:
In fact you may be better off without a lifejacket.
Rather you than me - most flotation suits have a buoyancy of between 50-85 newtons. The minimum recommended buoyancy of an adult life-saving device is 150N, if you're going offshore where you may end up in the water for some time then 275N. In addition to this a lifejacket will keep you the right way up, your head well clear of water and spray and your body in the correct posture to preserve body heat, flotation suits do none of these.

Quote:
Looking at the design these suits are not meant to be like a dry suit so it doesn't really matter wether it's a 1 piece or a 2 piece - they are designed to trap water a bit like a wetsuit.
Wetsuits only work because they are almost skin tight, allowing only a very small amount of water next to the skin which the human body can warm up.
The amount of water that would flow through a great big flotation suit would have almost no thermal qualities whatsoever when immersed.

Quote:
An angler was saved by a floatation suit recently at Ogmore Deeps near Bridgend.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/south_east/7161602.stm

Considering it was December, a F8 and he was in the water for 20 mins it's not bad going!!!
People have jumped from 13,000ft with a faulty parachute and survived!

You may have noticed that most flotation suits are aimed at recreational anglers ie people that stand at the end of piers etc. IMO they have no place on a boat, they just lull you in to a false sense of security and make it all to easy to not bother with the gear that really can save your life, ie dry suits and life jackets.
__________________
martini is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29 September 2008, 19:17   #14
Member
 
Nasher's Avatar
 
Country: Other
Town: Principalite d'Chaos
Boat name: The Nashers Revenge!
Make: Ocean & Bombard
Length: 6m +
Engine: Suzi DT200EFI, DT9.9
MMSI: "Mmmmm SI" she said!
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 4,147
Everything Martini just said


Nasher.
__________________
RIBBED For extra pleasure.
Member of the ebay Blue RIB cover club.
Member of the Bombard 380 Aerotec club
Nasher is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30 September 2008, 05:42   #15
RIBnet admin team
 
Poly's Avatar
 
Country: UK - Scotland
Boat name: imposter
Make: FunYak
Length: 3m +
Engine: 2 stroke YAM 20 HP
MMSI: 235089819
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 10,114
Quote:
Originally Posted by martini View Post
Floating face down is as much use as sinking!
true but that assumes you are already unconscious. assuming you are conscious a floatation suit will keep you afloat with no effort, maintain body temperature and therefore prolong the time until you go unconscious.
Quote:
Rather you than me - most flotation suits have a buoyancy of between 50-85 newtons. The minimum recommended buoyancy of an adult life-saving device is 150N, if you're going offshore where you may end up in the water for some time then 275N.
plenty of people have made the assesment that a standard bouyancy aid is what they need. That will typically provide 50N of bouyancy. Most flotation suits have more than that and the added thermal protection on top.

Quote:
In addition to this a lifejacket will keep you the right way up, your head well clear of water and spray and your body in the correct posture to preserve body heat, flotation suits do none of these.
I think you may have a false sense of security about what your lifejacket will actually do. A 150N lifejacket will probably struggle to right an adult with a dry suit on. The testing is normally performed without waterproof etc on. Once you add those, as many magazine reviews will confirm, then things become less clear cut. Add to that the potential for inflatable life jackets to fail (either through bladder faults, trigger faults or loose bottles) and you have another downside. Even in calm water I don't think "well clear" is the right phrase. I'm not sure why a lifejacket will better orient a person with respect to heat loss than a floatsuit.

It is well documented that lifejackets need crutch straps and sprayhoods to be effective in rough water.
Quote:
The amount of water that would flow through a great big flotation suit would have almost no thermal qualities whatsoever when immersed.
a good flotation suit doesn't allow the water to flow around though. mine has elasticated baffles all over the place. Flotation suits tested to ISO15027 have to stop your body losing more than 2 deg C after 1hr in water at 5 deg C. Most exceed that level. This is obviously marketing material for fladen - but presumably there is some substance to it. http://www.fladenfishing.se/pdf/en_c...es/122-131.pdf

On top of that there is the shock reflex of hitting cold water. From my personal, annecdotal evidence, that is significantly reduced wearing a good flotation suit.

Quote:
You may have noticed that most flotation suits are aimed at recreational anglers ie people that stand at the end of piers etc. IMO they have no place on a boat, they just lull you in to a false sense of security and make it all to easy to not bother with the gear that really can save your life, ie dry suits and life jackets.
I don't buy into your suggestion. And I think the core market for float suits is probably commercial rather than leisure.

A dry suit is definitely the way to go if you are planning/expecting to go in the water. I prefer to avoid that prospect in the first place. I don't believe float suits are a panasea - but I dispute that they are "more dangerous" than not wearing one which is what you are implying.
__________________
Poly is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30 September 2008, 08:25   #16
Member
 
Country: UK - Wales
Town: swansea
Boat name: Too Blue
Make: BLANK
Length: 8m +
Engine: Suzuki DT225
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 12,791
I actually agree with Polwort - there's a first!!!

To be able to stay for 1hr in water of 5C is incredible - no way would you survive that with just a lifejacket.

The ISO standard is pretty tough and not brought in for fun.

I suspect wearing a lifejacket with one of these suits could be more dangerous than not having one - it all depends on how you will float.

http://uk-fishing-tackle.co.uk/shipping3.php

Obviously it won't replace a proper dry suit but it's a lot cheaper and the jacket can be worn at other times.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	hypo.JPG
Views:	123
Size:	59.9 KB
ID:	37807  
__________________
codprawn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30 September 2008, 09:11   #17
RIBnet admin team
 
willk's Avatar
 
Country: Ireland
Make: Redbay Boats
Length: 9m +
Engine: 370hp
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 12,928
RIBase
Quote:
Originally Posted by codprawn View Post
I actually agree with Polwort - there's a first!!!
Good Grief, and I agree with both of you, srsly worried now! Nice link Codprawn, interesting that the 2 Piece suits don't make the grade, ISO-wise - "someone could, theoretically put just a jacket on and compromise the entire outfit". Still, it would be a good warm raincoat, but not an immersion jacket...
__________________
willk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30 September 2008, 09:29   #18
Member
 
Country: UK - Scotland
Town: Inverness
Boat name: none
Make: none
Length: 5m +
Engine: none
MMSI: none
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 1,908
I am looking into these as well for the winter.
Its horses for courses really. When I expect to be in the water diving or if I was out in really bad conditions I would wear a drysuit. For normal cruising in reasonable weather we use waterproofs and lifejackets (275N with crotch straps and lights) as a drysuit is too uncomfortable and sweaty for normal use if you want to walk around among normal folk in harbours and eating places. A suit, unless neoprene, has little insulation value in itself.
For cruising in the winter a flotation suit sounds ideal coupled with our normal 275N lifejackets to help until help arrives. The ISO for two pieces is not because they are less effective and can't meet the ISO (although common sense would seem to make them so as there is a join between the two parts) but because both parts need to be worn and there is no guarantee that both parts will be at all times.
if you look at survival suits they are designed to be as waterproof as possible but still trap water than gets in and keep you warm, they are anything but skintight as they come in a one-size-fits nobody sizing with the odd extra-large-fits-godzilla-size.
The normal market for these is both fishermen and commercial use, they are escpecially common on fishing boats and commercial vessels up here as lifejackets are rarely worn on these kinds of vessel.
To say that a flotation suit with lifejacket has no place on a boat is pretty wide of the mark, the only thing that would be valid is making sure one is not worn INSTEAD of a lifejacket or flotation device in which case there is a case against them.
The priority is making sure you are floating upright and can breathe with cold very closely following behind as a life preserving priority. Being nice and warm is not use if you are upside down in the water!
__________________
BruceB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30 September 2008, 12:16   #19
Member
 
Country: UK - Wales
Town: swansea
Boat name: Too Blue
Make: BLANK
Length: 8m +
Engine: Suzuki DT225
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 12,791
One thing I have just thought of - whilst a jacket on it's own won't meet the ISO standard i would have thought it would still offer valuable protection as it is the core parts of the body that are most important for avoiding hypothermia.

When i used to do a lot of winter mountaineering and hiking I found that my legs were never cold - usually just wore normal trousers with a good jacket.

Obviously full protection is best but a jacket would be far from useless on it's own.
__________________
codprawn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30 September 2008, 13:46   #20
Member
 
Hightower's Avatar
 
Country: UK - England
Town: Fareham
Length: 6m +
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 7,855
Quote:
Originally Posted by BruceB View Post
I am looking into these as well for the winter.
Its horses for courses really. When I expect to be in the water diving or if I was out in really bad conditions I would wear a drysuit. For normal cruising in reasonable weather we use waterproofs and lifejackets (275N with crotch straps and lights) as a drysuit is too uncomfortable and sweaty for normal use if you want to walk around among normal folk in harbours and eating places. A suit, unless neoprene, has little insulation value in itself.
For cruising in the winter a flotation suit sounds ideal coupled with our normal 275N lifejackets to help until help arrives. The ISO for two pieces is not because they are less effective and can't meet the ISO (although common sense would seem to make them so as there is a join between the two parts) but because both parts need to be worn and there is no guarantee that both parts will be at all times.
if you look at survival suits they are designed to be as waterproof as possible but still trap water than gets in and keep you warm, they are anything but skintight as they come in a one-size-fits nobody sizing with the odd extra-large-fits-godzilla-size.
The normal market for these is both fishermen and commercial use, they are escpecially common on fishing boats and commercial vessels up here as lifejackets are rarely worn on these kinds of vessel.
To say that a flotation suit with lifejacket has no place on a boat is pretty wide of the mark, the only thing that would be valid is making sure one is not worn INSTEAD of a lifejacket or flotation device in which case there is a case against them.
The priority is making sure you are floating upright and can breathe with cold very closely following behind as a life preserving priority. Being nice and warm is not use if you are upside down in the water!

I think you just about summed up what I was thinking of. I have the dry suit that I can use in really bad conditions. The only time I take off my lifejacket is when I'm fishing, my kids wear them at all times.
__________________

__________________
Andy

Looks Slow but is Fast
Member of the ebay Blue RIB cover club.
Hightower is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off





Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -5. The time now is 21:49.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.