Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
 
Old 26 May 2016, 14:11   #1
Member
 
Country: UK - England
Town: Aylesbury/Lymington
Boat name: Farfetched
Make: Solent
Length: 6m +
Engine: 150hp Optimax
MMSI: 235021048
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 859
Advice on Taking Friends Out

I do not hold a commercially endorsed PB3 nor is my boat coded. For example, we don't have a life raft and nor are we registered with the local harbour authorities.

However, from time to time I have mentioned a trip on RibNet and people I have not met before have come out with me on my boat, and kindly paid beer / petrol money.

So far, so good.

This year I have mentioned on "Streetlife", a local forum, that I am looking for boat buddies on a non commercial basis suggesting a contribution based on a proportional share of the fuel / oil used. I pay my proportional share depending on total number of souls on the boat. I continue to bear 100% of insurance, berthing, depreciation etc.

I have now taken out three 'strangers' whom I first met at the boatyard immediately before the trip in question. We had two great trips, including one trip around the Isle of Wight.

I have now had someone questioning on Streetlife whether I need commercial endorsement and coding. Also suggested I should talk to the MCA and my insurance. Latter were not worried at all. Have not wanted to stir up a hornets nest with MCA.

Can anyone give me advice? This is probably a grey area, but.....

Thank you so much.
__________________

__________________
brucehawsker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26 May 2016, 14:29   #2
Member
 
Country: Ireland
Town: Dublin
Make: XS650
Length: no boat
Join Date: Feb 2016
Posts: 163
I'm on a different island so I'm not aware of the local regulations but a commercial operator would:

1) post an add on the internet
2) meet his passengers just before departure
3) agree the financial compensation for the agreed trip

Sounds very like your situation.

Regardless of good intentions and a reasonable approach to sharing the cost of a day on the water should anything unfortunate happen I suspect the commentary/liability would be based on the outline above.
I'm not sure it's fair to claim that you're taking "friends" out on the boat.

You could look at a boatshare if you want to get the costs down.
__________________

__________________
Iron Dials is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26 May 2016, 14:44   #3
Member
 
Country: UK - England
Town: N. Devon
Boat name: Nutkin Too
Make: X-Pro Defender
Length: 5m +
Engine: Outboard, Suzuki 90
MMSI: 235095884
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 1,367
RIBase
Sounds as if you're drifting into the commercial world to me.

If a few mates pass you a bit of cash for fuel so be it but adverts, not knowing the 'guests' and charging a set fee (% of known cost is a fee) sounds like you've drifted.
__________________
Andy

Bude Dive Club - www.budediveclub.co.uk
GAFIRS - www.gafirs.org.uk
treerat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26 May 2016, 15:13   #4
Member
 
Country: UK - England
Town: Southampton
Boat name: SMH Rib / War Shot
Make: Ribtec / Scorpion
Length: 4m +
Engine: 10hp Yam / 150hp opt
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 1,894
RIBase
Hi Bruce,

Sounds like a commercial operation.

There are exceptions for "Members Clubs" to operate a vessel without being coded - but there are pretty strict definitions of these.

MGN280 refers which you can download from here: MCA CHARTER SURVEYS Hamble Southampton Swanwick Gosport Port Solent Lymington Poole Chichester : Saunders Morgan Harris Yacht Surveyors

Take a look at the definitions.
__________________
Searider is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26 May 2016, 15:30   #5
Member
 
Country: UK - England
Town: Retford
Boat name: Spy-sea-one
Make: Mercury
Length: 3m +
Engine: Suzuki Outboard/25/4
MMSI: 235074042
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 3,565
Your talking buddies out sharing costs non profit making no dIfferent than car sharing in my book I did the same fishing with my mates share costs on boat and car to tow it there slipway charges etc.

Cheers
__________________
jeffstevens763@g is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26 May 2016, 18:27   #6
Member
 
lakelandterrier's Avatar
 
Country: UK - England
Town: Gloucester
Boat name: Lunasea
Make: Ribcraft
Length: 5m +
Engine: Suzi 140
MMSI: 232005050
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 1,126
If the people you're taking out are making a voluntary contribution for fuel and they are not paying towards the boat or your "salary". I don't see there's a problem, especially if you're going out with the same people as a group of friends. Might be a bit risky taking out unknown quantities though.

I've crewed for other ribnetters only physically meeting them of day of trip and have taken others out on same basis. Never a commercial venture so OK - unless I'm missing something.
__________________
Member of the Macmillan Round the Isle of Wight Club
lakelandterrier is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26 May 2016, 18:45   #7
Member
 
Country: UK - Scotland
Town: Denny
Boat name: Hebridean Storm
Make: Coastline
Length: 6m +
Engine: Honda 130hp
MMSI: 235107505
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 835
Extract...


(Pleasure vessel” as defined in the Merchant Shipping (Small Commercial Vessels and Pilot Boats) Regulations 2004, means; (a)a vessel which - (i) is owned by an individual, and (ii)at the time it is being used (aa)is used only for the sport or pleasure of the owner or the immediate family or friends of the owner, and (bb)is on a free voyage or excursion; (b)a vessel which - (i) is owned by a body corporate, and (ii)at the time it is being used - (aa)is used only for the sport or pleasure of employees or officers of the body corporate, or their immediate family or friends, and (bb)is on a free voyage or excursion; (c)a vessel - (i) which is owned by or on behalf of the members of a members’ club, (ii)which, at the time it is being used, is used only for the sport or pleasure of a member of that club, his immediate family or his guest, and (iii)for the use of which no payment is made other than a payment into the funds of the members club which funds are applied for the general use of the members club. In this definition, “free voyage or excursion” means a voyage or excursion in respect of which - (a)subject to paragraphs (b) and (c), no money is paid, and no goods or services are provided, by any person; (b)the owner of the vessel engaged in the voyage or excursion may pay money, or provide goods and services, to any person; and (c)the owner of the vessel engaged in the voyage or excursion may only receive - (i) money for, or in connection with, the operation of the vessel or the carrying of any person in the vessel as a contribution to the direct expenses of the operation of the vessel incurred during the voyage or excursion, or (ii)goods and services which are used or provided on the vessel during the voyage or excursion.


So......it's a pleasure vessel and not subject to th restrictions defined by MGN280...
__________________
Last Tango is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26 May 2016, 19:06   #8
Member
 
Country: UK - England
Length: 3m +
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 2,250
[quote The Merchant Shipping (Vessels in Commercial Use for Sport or Pleasure) Regulations 1998 ] 2(1)a.i.
(aa)in the case of a vessel wholly owned by an individual or individuals, used only for the sport or pleasure of the owner or the immediate family or friends of the owner; or [/quote]
The debate about what constitutes a friend often crops up in the Rag and Stick world where people find crew from things like Crew Finder.

There is a response (Update : Paying / contributing crew) to an MCA enquiry if a crew found through crew finder can be a friend and the MCA say they wouldn't consider it as such. Your situation sounds at least as dubious.

However they say the financial arrangement (a common arrangement in the yachting world) in the YBW letter doesn't appear to be commercial. So I suspect that may well be the crux of the argument, can you demonstrate it was not commercial. So - how do you decide how much is contributed. If its a "fixed" sum set before going out - do you fill up when you come back ashore and split any excess? Do you take anything for wear and tear?

How is the venture advertised? Do you say "I am going out on my boat on Day X to go round IoW, anyone who is interested in helping me with navigation for a share of fuel costs please contact" or do you say "I have a boat and am prepared to take people out for 50 contribution to fuel costs, contact me to suggest a date. No experience necessary as I will do all the work". One seems more legit than the other. Or at least one is more similar to the YBW post.

The MCA's view being that you can appoint crew (no requirement that they are paid in my understanding) to assist. The friends and family bit relates to the pleasure part rather than the crew part...
__________________
ShinyShoe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26 May 2016, 19:10   #9
RIBnet admin team
 
Poly's Avatar
 
Country: UK - Scotland
Boat name: imposter
Make: FunYak
Length: 3m +
Engine: 2 stroke YAM 20 HP
MMSI: 235089819
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 10,112
How happy do you feel about describing these "strangers" as friends? is the "price" fixed in advance? - If so what happens if someone doesn't show / an extra person (a partner)? And what happens if the weather on the day means you don't go as far so burn less fuel?
__________________
Poly is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27 May 2016, 06:28   #10
Member
 
Country: UK - England
Town: Aylesbury/Lymington
Boat name: Farfetched
Make: Solent
Length: 6m +
Engine: 150hp Optimax
MMSI: 235021048
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 859
First of all, thank you all for your help on this matter.

The mechanism of publicity seems key in these matters.

I am saying I am looking for boat buddies on an online local forum. I am going out on a trip on a particular date to a particular location and expect to leave around a particular time for a particular duration. I go on to say that this is non commercial and on a friendship basis. The mechanics are they contact me by text or phone, we have a chat, and if they seem sensible (typically 50s + given my age and the area!!!) we discuss clothing and check I have a suitable life jacket and top layer if needed. Up to five spare places since there are six motorcycle seats on the boat,On the day we meet at the boat. I do a safety briefing and check life jackets.

We check fuel used and look at the oil level. On return we repeat the observation and calculate the cost to me of consumables. We then divide that by the total number of souls on the boat (including me) and that is what I suggest as a contribution. Usually I don't pay for my single pint of beer if we stop en route.

So the amount they pay is variable depending on the route, duration, weather, and number of folks who turn up. But it is typically 20 or 30 per head. A trip may be four to six hours. This is WAY under the commercial rates which seem to be 15 an hour for a blast on larger boat with all the helming and crewing done by professionals,

Usually everyone has a go at helming. I have a centre mounted throttle for safety reasons and I always sit at the navigators seat next to the helm.

Does this clarify matters at all? I really don't want to do anything inadvisable, and if anyone can suggest specifics I need to make clear in writing to protect myself, or things I need to do to protect my boat buddies, then I am keen to implement them.

Thank you so much.

Bruce
__________________

__________________
brucehawsker is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off





Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -5. The time now is 00:08.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.