To brake or not to brake - that is the question???

[paintman]

Originally Posted by lukewhiting

And a b+e license...to add that into the mix

I'm presuming your response is to this part of my post:
"The law says you cannot tow an unbraked trailer that weighs more than 750kgs. Above 750kg it must have brakes."

A common but mistaken belief that you automatically need B+E to tow a trailer which exceeds 750kg. (If that WAS the case I suspect caravan sales would fall through the floor, they are after all just a trailer.)
You might want to have a look through the topics to do with vehicle weights & driving licences which are the stickies at the head of this forum.
Don't forget to check what the vehicle manufacturer gives as the maximum towing weights for your make & model.

ETA. Link to gov.uk which gives you the info & also appears to have a link to enter your licence details to check your entitlement: https://www.gov.uk/towing-with-car

[lukewhiting]

Originally Posted by paintman

I'm presuming your response is to this part of my post:
"The law says you cannot tow an unbraked trailer that weighs more than 750kgs. Above 750kg it must have brakes."

A common but mistaken belief that you automatically need B+E to tow a trailer which exceeds 750kg. (If that WAS the case I suspect caravan sales would fall through the floor, they are after all just a trailer.)
You might want to have a look through the topics to do with vehicle weights & driving licences which are the stickies at the head of this forum.
Don't forget to check what the vehicle manufacturer gives as the maximum towing weights for your make & model.

ETA. Link to gov.uk which gives you the info & also appears to have a link to enter your licence details to check your entitlement: https://www.gov.uk/towing-with-car

I spoke to the dvla and they said you can tow a combined weight of upto 3.5t or 750kg without a licence.

So if I owned a Land Rover with a 3.5t towing weight legally I'm not allowed to even tow a little garden trailer!! (Checked this with them)

All abit of a mine feild really.

Not to distract from the OP though!

[paintman]

You have misunderstood or - more likely - they have poorly explained it.
I believe on the information you give that your licence is post 1997 but pre 2013 so your entitlement is you may:

• drive a vehicle up to 3,500kg MAM towing a trailer of up to 750kg MAM
• tow a trailer over 750kg MAM as long as the combined MAM of the trailer and towing vehicle is no more than 3,500kg

MAM is also known as Gross Vehicle Weight.

Funny you should choose a Land Rover as your example. In the case of my RRC (1986 3.5EFi automatic) Land Rover give its GVW/MAM as 2510kg.

With my car you can tow a trailer OVER 750kg (which must be braked) up to a MAM of 990kgs (2510kg + 990kg = 3500kg).

If you have a vehicle with a MAM of 3500kg you can tow a trailer with a MAM of up to 750kg as the legislation permits you a combined MAM of 4250kg.

The 3500kg is Land Rovers figure for the maximum weight of trailer so even on my licence I can't legally exceed that weight with an overrun braked trailer. (LR give a higher weight for coupled brakes)

Confusing isn't it!
Personally I never saw the point in the messing about with the legislation. If there is believed to be an issue then from a set date legislation should require that anyone who wants to tow should pass additional training.

Apologies to the OP for the hijack!

[Xk59D]

B+E sucks.......had to sit mine a few months ago. Was just about 600 quid all in for a 4 hour course. In my neck of the woods that is the minimum I could find. Some demanded a 3 day course £££££££

[Pikey Dave]

Originally Posted by Xk59D

B+E sucks.......had to sit mine a few months ago. Was just about 600 quid all in for a 4 hour course. In my neck of the woods that is the minimum I could find. Some demanded a 3 day course £££££££

Being an old git & not having had to go through the rigmarole, do you actually have to attend a course, or is it a case of as long as you pass the test you get the ticket? To be fair, some of the "old timers" I see trying to reverse trailers shouldn't be let loose. I'm all for a test, but I'd assumed it was like the driving test, as long as you passed the test, it was irrelevant how you acquired the skills.

[Xk59D]

If you have a small box trailer ( I think it needs to be 4 wheel), extra mirrors for the instructor and load it up with slabs to a certain weight, you could use that and only pay about 120 quid for the test itself.

No one would give me only 1 hour as it wasn't worth their time. Hence I had to pay 460 quid for 4 hours. 3 with them and 1 with the test centre and pay for the actual test.

I must admit, the chance of passing it without the basic course would be close to nil. There are a few things that they pick up on on general driving that would cause a fail. I.E mirrors every 10 seconds, the steering wheel shuffle etc. There is also a very strict way to unhitch and rehitch or instant fail is a coming!

[Searider]

A 5.5m RIB on a trailer will be very close to 750kg, if not over.

My 54. Searider, 90hp mariner 2 stroke, 100 litres of fuel, double jockey console, A frame, battery and anchor was only a few kilos under.

When you get it take it to a local weighbridge - should only cost £10 or so to weigh it.

[Last Tango]

[QUOTE=

When you get it take it to a local weighbridge - should only cost £10 or so to weigh it.[/QUOTE]

Trouble is.... by then presumably he'll already have bought the boat and trailer.

[Pikey Dave]

Originally Posted by Last Tango

Trouble is.... by then presumably he'll already have bought the boat and trailer.

I which case he could weigh it before he buys it.

[treerat]

Thanks all, carrying out a weight check before leaving the area I'm traveling to for collection could be difficult.

With the weights being so close we've gone for the braked. I'd hate to leave a set of dive gear on board only to find I'm over, as that'll be the day Mrs Moggins hits the side.....

[Poly]

Originally Posted by Pikey Dave

I'm all for a test, but I'd assumed it was like the driving test, as long as you passed the test, it was irrelevant how you acquired the skills.

If you can borrow or hire a suitable trailer it has to be a closed box type with particular size restriction. It has to have a verifiable load (easy enough if you have access to an IBC you can put water in). The sort of trailer needed should cost no more than about £50 for a full day. I don't think it needs to be 4-wheel, nor does having an extra rear view mirror for the examiner since he will not see anything in it! There are certainly cheaper options than Xk59D used, but convenience etc, all factor into it.

Originally Posted by Xk59D

I must admit, the chance of passing it without the basic course would be close to nil. There are a few things that they pick up on on general driving that would cause a fail. I.E mirrors every 10 seconds, the steering wheel shuffle etc. There is also a very strict way to unhitch and rehitch or instant fail is a coming!

Therein lies the issue - but you can't really criticise the instructors for not just providing you a vehicle, when actually you needed some specific training.

[diver 1]

I doubt your trailer will be as light as that! My single axle weighs more in the region for 400kgs! My rig comes in around 1300kgs when I put it on a calibrated weighbridge - that's a light 90hp 2 stroke and 5.8mtr rib. 1/2 tank of fuel and no scuba gear...

Having a hand brake is a big advantage at times and brakes take a lot of strain off your car.

[SW Boat Transport]

A typical 750kg GVW trailer will weigh around 170 kg, so you only have 580kg of capacity.

I used to have a Humber 5.3m with Honda 90hp. Adding up all the bits on paper came to bang on 750kg, but when I took it to a weighbridge the total was nearly 900kg!

[MatFromPoland]

Originally Posted by treerat

Folks

Trailer 100
Hull 250

=703kg total (before electrics)
Ta

Can you provide me a link to trailer ?
Brenderup BASIC 750 is more than 200 kg so I wonder who can make trailer weight 100 kg ???

The same for boat. Are you sure about it weight ?

Mine HIGHFIELD OM540 is stated 400 kg but real weight with console seats was near 550 - 600 kg.

When I calculate like you total (with trailer was) 900 kg
Real weight checked (boat on trailer) was 1150.

[MatFromPoland]

Not adopted in GB – The Directive adds an option for drivers who want to tow a trailer over 750kg where the combined weight of the vehicle and trailer is over 3,500kg (up to a maximum of 4,250kg), but who don’t want to take a B+E test.
Member states can allow these customers to apply for the additional entitlement against their category B, and show it as a new Community code 96 on the licence. The driver would still have to pass a driving test or training programme, but not one that would give them B+E entitlement. GB has not taken up this proposal, but must recognise this code as valid entitlement to tow those trailers because some EU member states may have licenses issued with this category

Does it mean that in UK you still do not have B96 driving licence ?
It allows me to tow trailer having GVW till 1700 kg with my car having GVW 2550 kg (total less than 4250). In some EU countries you need only to have a few hrs of training to obtain it.

[ShinyShoe]

Mat in the UK the rules are a bit of a mess. But basically you need a B + E licence (B is a car and E is a trailer). However there are a variety of exemptions:

Firstly anyone who got a licence before 1997 got B + E when they sat the B licence!

Anyone since then till about a year ago can drive a B (max 3500kg) + 750kg unbraked [i.e. total 4250kg] or a B + braked to a total combined of 3500kg. The most recent licence says you can't go over the 3500kg at all I think, so as Luke says he can buy a 3.5T Landrover and can't tow anything with it.

You can do a B+E Test to 'upgrade' which costs £120 test fee. But as the test has some "procedures" for you to follow chances are you need a few hours of lessons to pass and if you either have bad driving habits or have never reversed a trailer you may need a few more hours...

The reason its an issue is because of the pre 1997 people... ...otherwise everyone would think it perfectly normal. (Wish I'd resat my test in 1995 when I failed - would make life much simpler!)

[MatFromPoland]

I have tried to avoid an training or tests.
On the end I bought 3 hrs with instructor who teach me a lot.
Next to I failed for first test (forgot about turn signal when park back on maneuvers place). I have passed second time.

With these 3 hrs of training and tests I had more confidence on my to Greece.

[Xk59D]

Originally Posted by Poly

If you can borrow or hire a suitable trailer it has to be a closed box type with particular size restriction. It has to have a verifiable load (easy enough if you have access to an IBC you can put water in). The sort of trailer needed should cost no more than about £50 for a full day. I don't think it needs to be 4-wheel, nor does having an extra rear view mirror for the examiner since he will not see anything in it! There are certainly cheaper options than Xk59D used, but convenience etc, all factor into it.


Therein lies the issue - but you can't really criticise the instructors for not just providing you a vehicle, when actually you needed some specific training.

I actually had 2 pre-tests they make you sit as I tried a different examiner before. His car was stinking of smoke so i never went with them. However, both told me I was good already and could hire a trailer, extra mirrors etc if I wanted. One wouldn't give me their rig without minimum of a full day booking and was a waste of money in my case, their words. The other one was 4 hours and also not needed, their words. So it is a bit of a con IMO as there is no need to have a minimum other than profiteering. It is their stuff though so you can walk away if unhappy, unlikely it will happen and they use that to their advantage. In my case they could have charged me 1 hour for the initial lesson and 1 hour for the test time if they wanted.......

I said examiners need extra mirrors, not inside ones though

Caveat: It was one of the examiners who told me you need a 4 wheel trailer, mirrors etc. I have never confirmed it though.

[9D280]

Ok, I'll admit I stopped reading the thread at about the 4th post, and fair enough if it's all legal.



However, legal discussions aside, if you are legal now, fair enough no problem.... but are you future proof? I also could have strictly legally gone unbraked, but decided 50 KG was sufficiently close that I might as well go braked. And just as well I did.

Traded in my big 6 speed diesel-ed Focus Estate to slightly smaller diesel-ed 5 speed Mondeo. Bigger car - you'd think the unbraked would still be 750Kg? - Nope, it dropped to 743 or something like that.

Also when we go on holiday I'll easily put 100Kg of "extras" like camping gear in the boat......


Your dive club - how far do they normally tow between launches? I have brakes and do a good 40 miles minimum after flushing the hubs. NEVER had a problem with the brakes. The killer is going swimming and not getting any brake action to dry everything out......

[treerat]

Originally Posted by 9D280

However, legal discussions aside, if you are legal now, fair enough no problem.... but are you future proof?


Your dive club - how far do they normally tow between launches? I have brakes and do a good 40 miles minimum after flushing the hubs. NEVER had a problem with the brakes. The killer is going swimming and not getting any brake action to dry everything out......

I am now as I've gone brakes, the thought of leaving dive kit or as you say changing cars wasn't worth the extra cost.

That could be part of the issue, we rarely run more than 20 miles and she can be left for a few weeks between uses, after sitting on a beach all day flooding launch.