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Old 27 July 2007, 01:18   #11
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Tomas,
Isn't Picton Castle the one they used in the recent "reality" TV series about pirates?
cheers Dal
Yes, that's the ship. She's a "Canadian" vessel but is flagged in the Marshall Islands.
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Old 27 July 2007, 07:38   #12
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Yes, that's the ship. She's a "Canadian" vessel but is flagged in the Marshall Islands.
"Flags of convenience" - a highly questionable tax avoidance scheme utiliized by some of Canadian ship owners. Most notably, was Canada's (most recent) former Prime Minister, whose family owned a steamship line that ran Liberian & Bahaman flags on their steamships so as to avoid paying Canadian taxes.

http://www.cbc.ca/disclosure/archive...csl/flags.html

http://paulmartintime.ca/story/000025.html
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Old 27 July 2007, 15:54   #13
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PT; That's not just Canada. Many commercial cargo ships (and, I believe, cruise ships) are registered in places where taxes and such are beneficial. Liberia is a big one, but there are a few others (that I can't recall right now.)

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Old 28 July 2007, 07:12   #14
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The problem as I understand it is that if a vessel in the Castle's class is flagged in Canada, a "Canadian" crew is required. The Castle does circumnavigations and at various times has crew of 10-15 different nationalities. Most merchant marine vessels in the States are registered in Lyberia or Panama. Taxes may well be part of the reason but especially in the States knee jerk legislation make it all but impossible to operate under a US Flag.

My SeaRider is flagged in Never Never Land
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Old 28 July 2007, 17:51   #15
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PT; That's not just Canada. Many commercial cargo ships (and, I believe, cruise ships) are registered in places where taxes and such are beneficial. Liberia is a big one, but there are a few others (that I can't recall right now.)

jky
What grinds me is that when a head of state (particularly ours) does this kind of thing he shows complete disdain for the country that he was supposed be the leadership. No wonder his prime ministership barely lasted one year.
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Old 28 July 2007, 23:43   #16
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Head of State

I'll take your guy over the US guy any day of the week. We can't vote in presidential elections down here, so don't blame me. Bush had his colon checked for cancer last week and after the procedure they replaced his head in its previous position, up his arse.

But seriously, most of the reasons for foreign flags are to avoid labor protection (Union) issues. Sorry but if you demand a deck hand be paid $50k a year if one is flagged Canadian or US and you can get a deck hand for $15k a year flagged Liberian and you leave that door open, they are all going to go through it. The Canadian or US company is still required to pay taxes and comply with safety standards to enter the ports.
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Old 31 July 2007, 11:20   #17
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I'll take your guy over the US guy any day of the week. We can't vote in presidential elections down here, so don't blame me. Bush had his colon checked for cancer last week and after the procedure they replaced his head in its previous position, up his arse.
Didn't realize it was ever anyplace else. Oh. Never mind.


Quote:
But seriously, most of the reasons for foreign flags are to avoid labor protection (Union) issues. Sorry but if you demand a deck hand be paid $50k a year if one is flagged Canadian or US and you can get a deck hand for $15k a year flagged Liberian and you leave that door open, they are all going to go through it. The Canadian or US company is still required to pay taxes and comply with safety standards to enter the ports.
There are in-transit and docking requirements that all ships must comply with within territorial waters, but there are also the registration fees and taxes and such that are required by the flagging country. The US tends to lead the pack with respect to those costs.


From http://www.mycounsel.us/Trial.html :
"Many passenger vessels in U.S. ports are registered under foreign flags. Although the owner may be headquartered in
the United States, foreign registry allows the owner to avoid U.S. taxes and labor laws. However, foreign vessels that
pick up passengers in the United States are subject to inspection because the Coast Guard enforces the International
Convention for the Safety of Life at Sea.32 The Coast Guard examines foreign passenger ships when they first go into
service at U.S. ports and conducts quarterly inspections thereafter. The Coast Guard observes lifeboat drills and
conducts tests on other safety equipment."



And from Wikipedia:

"Background:
As of 2000, half the world's tonnage of merchant ships were registered under flags of convenience.[4] Some reasons for this include the avoidance of heavy taxes,[5] the ability to hire crews from lower-wage countries,[5] avoidance of environmental regulations,[6] and an overall reduction in the cost of transportation.[5]

"A specific example of the type of advantage flying a flag of convenience offers is bypassing the 50% duty the United States government charges on repairs performed on American-flagged ships in foreign ports.[5] The accumulated advantages can be significant, for example in 1999, 28 of Sea-Land's fleet of 63 ships were foreign flagged, saving the company up to 3.5 million dollars per ship per year.[5]

"On the other hand, some flag of convenience ships are characterized by "poor conditions, inadequately trained crews, and frequent collisions."[6] The International Transport Workers' Federation points out that FOC vessels frequently fail to pay their crews,[5] have poor safety records,[5] and engage in practices such as abandoning crewmen in distant ports.[5]. It might be argued that these practices occur more in cases such as Liberia, Vanuatu and Belize, rather than well developed open registries such as Panama, Cyprus, Marshall Islands and The Bahamas.


"History:
The first flag of convenience was that of Panama[7] and the practice of re-flagging ships grew in popularity during the period from 1920-1933 of Prohibition in the United States.[5] During this time, American rum runners carried illegal alcohol under the Panamanian flag.[5]

"Failing to control the Panamanian registry at will, in 1948, the United States helped Liberia create its "open registry."[7] The Liberian registry attracted American oil companies[7] and Greek shipowners[7] who sought to avoid high labor costs.[7] The success of Liberia's registry encouraged the opening of other competing registries.[7]

"In the 1970s the United Nations attempted to adopt regulations that would have stopped the practice.[7] However, Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development countries defeated these measures.[7]

"In 2002 in the United States, Democratic senator John Breaux of Louisiana proposed a bill intending to curtail the use of foreign flags as a counter-terrorism measure.[7]"

[the previous from a search for "foreign registry"]


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Old 31 July 2007, 21:36   #18
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jyasaki

Good and factual information. Thanks for your post.

This 911 stuff has had some serious results, "around here". For as long as anyone living can remember there were independent traders, "goat boats" that traded between islands. They would arrive here with fresh fruit and vegetables from "down island" and leave with used washing machines, used cars, empty beer bottles for redemption and all sort of goods outbound to our neighbors and families.

The population here is 90% Afro-Caribbean. We are native to all the Islands in the region, artificial national boundries are theoretical at best. What may be trade of convenience to others is trade of necessity to us. Our families are located throughout the region as are our economic partners.

Two years ago the Coast Guard blockaded harbors here and denied entrance to all but US vessels with US crews. We're protected from "fruit bombs" as a result but great hardship has resulted. Consider the British Virgins, close neighbors of ours. There is a huge charger boat industry here and one can go from one jurisdiction to another in ten nautical miles, or far less. (even in a rib) ((on topic)). The new rules require a vessel entering let's say St. John (US) from Tortola (British) to fax a crew list 24 hours in advance of US entry to be admitted even though one could swim from Soapers Hole in Tortola to Cruz Bay, St. John. That means that one needs to plan 24 hours in advance, on a vessel of local origin, to go less than ten miles to another harbor for the purposes of leisure. Have you a fax machine on your RIB?

Sorry I'm all over the War on Terrorism but can you spell:

B E R L I N W A L L

I am unfortunately on the wrong side of the "concrete block"

Hope I don't get tossed from this forum for "political" posts but the inability to go from harbors in sight of one another is just as important an issue for RIBS as having the proper bilge pump.......

Tomas
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Old 01 August 2007, 00:55   #19
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Thomas,

Interesting stuff. No doubt that the terrorists achieved much of what they meant to via the reaction to 911 from within North America - which has caused a substantial disruption of trade within North America - all in the name of 'homeland security'. The new passport requirements for Canadians to cross into the U.S has been a major blow to the economies of alot of U.S communities close to the Canadian border. I'm sure it has even affected the RIB trade across the border (on topic ).
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