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Old 14 August 2008, 17:34   #11
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phrase "when proceeding to sea" is critical and I believe has been taken to mean when leaving categorised waters so you wouldnt need one "pottering about" up rivers- but of course only a court can ......etc
I think the courts did make a judgement on this issue of whether a boat was "going to sea" or simply "on the sea" in the case of the the jetski collision that the MCA tried to prosecute under the merchant shipping act.

If I recall correctly the court of appeal said that the jetski was not "going to sea" even althout it was on the sea and that going to sea was interpretted to mean making a voyage from place to place or something to that effect.
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Old 14 August 2008, 17:44   #12
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wasn't that a question of was the pwc a vessel because it didnt do journeys fro A to B but instead always returned to point A and therefore did not come under the merchant shipping defn. These are different regs. I asked the RYA the question re reflectors because of centre inspections- and had the reply re cat waters.
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Old 14 August 2008, 17:53   #13
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wasn't that a question of was the pwc a vessel because it didnt do journeys fro A to B but instead always returned to point A and therefore did not come under the merchant shipping defn. These are different regs. I asked the RYA the question re reflectors because of centre inspections- and had the reply re cat waters.
I thought the question was whether it was a sea going vessel? I'll see if google can help...

[EDIT: ...and it does... http://findarticles.com/p/articles/m...9/ai_n15922611 in brief - we are both right the appeal was based on both the question of if it were a ship (which it was not, as it was not used for navigation) and if so were it a sea-going ship (which is was not as it was not used to "set out to sea on a voyage"). Actually there was no dispute that it was a vessel.]

[EDIT2: and your/the RYA definition of sea going - is consistent with the HMRC definition for tax purposes: http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/manuals/ttmmanual/ttm03530.htm]
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Old 15 August 2008, 18:24   #14
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Wow, I thought this might start a debate!

Coming back to my starting point, as a 4m RIB with an A-frame operating in inshore waters should I (or should I legally) fit a radar reflector, and if so what's the best (at lowest cost)?

At present my confusion is as great as when I posed the original question!

confused & befuddled Terrier!
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Old 15 August 2008, 19:48   #15
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Nah don't bother!!!
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Old 15 August 2008, 22:00   #16
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A bloke wot I know...
... is presently a Coastie, but previously drove safety/supply boats in the North Sea. He doesn't bother with reflectors on his rib, because he didn't find they made much difference to the RADAR signature of his daughter boats. When doing pickups in the grey, he used to make them trip a SART - he saw that!

The few reports I've read seem to suggest they don't work in a real environment, especially the small plastic rod type.

Legally, not my jurisdiction.
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Old 15 August 2008, 22:33   #17
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Suggest you tie a pair of really soiled skivvys to the top of your VHF antenna.
Works great as long as you are up wind.
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Old 18 August 2008, 09:48   #18
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from memory, cos I'm not at home, SOLAS V regs require three things for UK vessels if proceeding to sea
1) a table of lifesaving signals
2) a passage plan
3) a radar reflector (if practical to fit)
I think you'll find that Solas V regs are for comercial vessels, not some private chap going about his own business!

All of the stuff about going to sea and PWC's is not relevant at all - my advice for what it's worth is don't bother unless you're going to be embarking on voyages in shipping lanes or out at night or fog, and then it would be better to get some electronic protection as well!
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Old 18 August 2008, 10:32   #19
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I think you'll find that Solas V regs are for comercial vessels, not some private chap going about his own business
dont think so.
Quote from back of MCA booklet on solas V :
On 1st july 2002 some new regulations came into force which directly affect you as a pleasure boat user. These regulations are part of chapter V of the International Convention for the Safety of Life at Sea, otherwise known as SOLAS V. Most of the SOLAS convention only applies to large commercial ships, but parts of chapter V apply to small privately owned pleasure craft. Regulations described in this leaflet apply to you.
According to the RYA they got the original list wittled down to these three requirements whilst some countries have a list which is much longer. Certainly when boating abroad on clients vessels we have been approached by the coastguards of various countries, some of whom have been great whilst certain others have been all guns and attitude, with a checklist as long as your arm. Mind you they are usually more interested in the owner having paid the local Taxes. (something like 15 per hp per year in Turkey )
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Old 18 August 2008, 10:58   #20
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All of the stuff about going to sea and PWC's is not relevant at all
well fair enuff if thats what ya reckon -but that is based on advice by rya legal when questioning them re the requirements for various boats encountered during training centre inspections.
Like many regs, particularly with the virtually nil level of enforcement around the uk it will probably never be a problem until the crap hits the fan when someone gets hurt. Then its just one of those charges for the prosecution to throw in cos its likely to get a result and mitigate costs, no matter what happens to the main charge! I have cheap tubular reflectors, I doubt they do any more to our visibility than the lump of engine that is there, but they dont take up much room, they didnt cost the earth and I'm covering m'back just in case.
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