Rough/surgy mis firing ficht 150

desertrat · 13 July 2014, 18:20

Well following on from my last thread about the circuit breaker the engine now starts and runs but not very well.

It's very rough and surgy at tick over and there is also a misfire.

I've put new plugs in as I don't know the age of the originals having only bought the boat very recently but it's made no difference. I'm guessing it could be leads or coil packs or injectors etc.....

I'm not sure where to go next really but I'm thinking I'm going to be clutching at straws without the evinrude diagnostic software/cable.

Does anyone have any ideas about where to start or where to get the diagnostic software/cables from?

Failing that does anyone know a good/reliable evinrude dealer/tech not too far from Wolverhampton in the West midlands as I'm starting to loose the will to live with this engine? I just want to go out ribbing and can't get this thing reliable/useable.

Cheers
Rob

tonto · 13 July 2014, 21:53

I had a very similar problem on my Ficht 135 (same engine block, etc)
With mine it eventually turned out to be a scrapped cylinder, I really hope yours is not the same.
Do a compression test on all cylinders, and check out fleabag for the software.
Check the leads and where they go onto the coils for corrosion.
Also check the crank position sensor, as that will give the same problems, you need to check the gap, and also the resistance, but best you can do is get software, and manual from the net.

Hope you get to the bottom of it.

desertrat · 13 July 2014, 23:23

Checked the gap to the sensor and it's fine but will check resistance.

In the process of sorting the software, going to make up a lead. Also a friend is coming round to do the compression test in the next couple of days so I to hope that it isn't a cylinder issue!

Cheers
Rob

desertrat · 13 July 2014, 23:24

Also read about an exhaust pressure sensor that can give similar problems so going to have a hunt for that.

desertrat · 14 July 2014, 22:44

Well had a bit of a play tonight with a friend who knows his way around an engine but not sure what we've really learnt.

Compression tested the cylinders two at 110 and the other four at 105 so not a vast difference but not sure what there supposed to be. Engine still ran very rough but after revving it up it ran spot on at tick over for a couple of minutes then started missing again.

We pulled plug leads off with it running to try and find a pattern but couldn't really tell any difference so must be missing on more than one cylinder at random.

There is oil visible in four of the air intakes and were not sure where it's coming from, possibly coming back through from the pistons when there missing? Not sure if it's a coincidence or not but it's on the four cylinders that were 105 on the compression test, the two at 110 had no visible oil?

Hopefully will have the diagnostic cable parts tomorrow so will try and see what that tells us.

As usual if any of this gives anyone any ideas please let me know.

Cheers
Rob

Seaflyer02 · 14 July 2014, 22:53

Hi, Would help with a little bit more history - Have you just got this, are you familiar with ficht, has it been stood/winterised etc., do you know how to put the plugs in in relation to the injectors? The more we know the more likely we can point you in the right direction.
I know some people don't like them but I think they are fantastic engines starting first time every time.

desertrat · 14 July 2014, 23:03

Hi

Ok bought the boat/engine late last year, took it for a sea trial when purchased and didn't seem to be any engine issues that I recall. Rewired all the aux electrics over the winter took it out for it's first run about 4 weeks ago and again it seemed to run ok for the first hour. So I guess it was stood for around 4 months, put fresh fuel in and it started first turn of the key. Hasn't been winterised that I know to.

After stopping and restarting the engine it developed the misfire.

Then had some starting problems which seem to have been cured with a new solenoid and removing the 60A circuit breaker which was on the main battery wire and I discovered it shouldn't have been. (I just hope the breaker on the main wire didn't do something nasty to the EMM when it tripped when the engine tried to start). The power has never been removed from the engine when it was running however.

I don't know a lot about engines or Ficht's really but do know that need very specific plugs and for them to be indexed correctly which I've done when I fitted new ones last week.

Hope this helps.
Cheers
Rob

Seaflyer02 · 15 July 2014, 18:43

Have you had the plugs out since it ran and misfired? Look at the colour to find out which pot is missing (should be pale chocolate colour).
Are you able to run the engine when it is dark to see if it sparking down the leads/plug porcelain/coil etc.
Far better to start with the cheap options and eliminate those first.
If you have a water/fuel filter between the tank and engine I would remove the filter and carefully pour the contents into a clear jar, it may be stale fuel that has reached the engine, worth checking.
If this does not cure it I will suggest some other things you can check.

Hope it works.

desertrat · 15 July 2014, 23:35

Thanks for the reply, I haven't run it in the dark so will try that tomorrow. I can't see it being stale fuel as I emptied the tank before filling it with fresh and have put about 40 litres through it so far.

We have tried all sorts today though so maybe some of this may help.

We've tested and correctly gapped the crank position sonsor. Tested the throttle position sensor, tested the water temp sensor. All seem ok. Cleaned up all earth connections and removed/cleaned coil packs/connections.

We've removed and cleaned the exhaust back pressure sensor as it didn't seem to be reading correctly and it turned out to be full of carbon build up and didn't look to ever have been removed! Unfortunately this didn't fix the problem.

With huge thanks to a fellow ribnetter (they know who they are) I've plugged in the diagnostic software today and found/done the following....

There are no logged fault codes except for three we intentionally triggered when testing things.
We checked the timing then performed the timing calibration in the diag software.
All plugs seem to fire when tested from the diag software.
All injectors click when tested from the diag software.

When the engine runs it missed for a while then seems to drop ok for a while then start missing again. If when the engine is missing you either disable the injector or pull the plug lead from cylinder 5 everything sounds much better. I'm not sure if this indicates a problem with cyl 5 though or whether this just drops the engine from 5 to 4 cylinders and balances everything out.

I say the above because if you pull the plug lead from cyl 5 then disable cyl 6 injector on the opposite side it makes NO difference to how the engine runs, almost as if no 6 cyl isn't firing at all! If you disable no 2 or 4 injector the engine stalls immediately! Ran out of light before I could test further disabling 1 and 3 to see what effect that had.

So to conclude it's almost as if no 6 isn't firing at all and the even things up you have to stop no 5 but what I don't understand is surely disabling 1 or 3 would have the same effect?

Either way all of this just helps along the way and we haven't actually found the problem yet......sigh

And if anyone has actually read all that is still with me, well done.....any ideas hugely appreciated at this stage.

Cheers
Rob

desertrat · 15 July 2014, 23:40

Oh I forgot to add that I've read that all of the injector information, serial number, specs, tollerances etc. for all 6 injectors is stored in the EMM's config for it to make adjustments to engine running. This is done by the dealer when any injector/EMM changes are made.

Well NONE of the injector serial numbers stored in the EMM match the serial numbers on the injectors so I assume none of the individual injector configs is bang on either.

I'd assume from this that at some point the engine has either had a new EMM or 6 new injectors and this hasn't been done by an official dealer hence no injector files downloaded and put into EMM.

I don't know whether this could cause this much of a problem but you never know I guess?

Seaflyer02 · 16 July 2014, 07:11

I thought if you changed the injectors/EMM then the EMM had to be programmed for them.

What year is it OMC or BRP?
From what you have said I would still take the plugs out to confirm which cylinder is causing the problem.
Rule of thumb: -
If it is electrical the plug is likely to be wet/black
If it is fuel/injector plug is likely to be dry/clean

With the EMM not having any fault codes makes me think all the systems are working with in parameters which leaves a more basic fault such as faulty: -plug, coil, lead, low tension wire to the coil ( I was going to say check the earths but you have done), restricted or gunged fuel feed to or the injector.

I have more suggestions but PM me and I will phone you it will be easier.

desertrat · 16 July 2014, 13:35

Hi

Thanks for all the help so far, I've sent you a PM.

Cheers
Rob

Pikey Dave · 16 July 2014, 17:19

If the injector co-efficients haven't been programmed into the emm, it can have fatal results on the powerhead, that issue needs addressing asap. It won't help the rough running issue either, to properly diagnose the problem, you need to sort this out first, it could well BE the problem. After that's sorted, if the problem persists, you need to start with basics, fuel; is air being drawn into the system? A piece of clear hose inserted after the lift pump will enable you to see any bubbles in the fuel. Lift pump: is the diaphragm knackered, does the problem go away if you pump the primer bulb with the engine running. Remove the hoses from the crankcase to the lift pump & pump the primer bulb, do you get fuel out of the hoses to the crankcase, if so, pump is u/s. Next step is to check the pressure on the HP side to the injectors, you need a gauge for this, there is a port on the HP side of the pump to check the pressure. Could be a dealer job, this bit. After that you need to start looking at injectors/electrics/coils etc. Just a thought, if the injectors have been swapped, just make sure that they have been connected to the correct leads & not cross connected.

desertrat · 16 July 2014, 20:18

Ok I'm getting really quite confused with this injector information.

There is a QR code on my injectors next to the serial number and part number. If I scan this QR code it contains injector coefficient information and a serial number. Surprise surprise the coefficient information and serial number in the QR code on the injector match the same information stored in the EMM! But that is different to the serial number actually written on the injector.

Now I'm really confused!

Is there any chance someone with a 2002-2004 ficht 150 engine could please have a look for a part number on there injectors as well as I just want to double check that mine are the correct ones? BRP say the part number should be 5005195 but my injectors p/n on them is 5001156.

Cheers
Rob

Pikey Dave · 17 July 2014, 16:25

I could be talking bollix here, but I'm not aware that FICHT injectors had QR codes on them. Is it printed on the body of the injector or on a separate label attached to the injector?

.....sh1t happens.......

Hightower · 17 July 2014, 18:12

Here's a photo of an injector on mine, sorry it's upside down.

desertrat · 17 July 2014, 23:46

Thanks Andy, that's exactly the same as mine and same part no.

Mike at South Coast Marine also confirmed today that that p/n injector is fine in the ficht engine.

Really odd that the s/n in the QR code doesn't match the s/n on the injector but apparently it's the one in the QR code that matters and the coefficients and they match what's in my EMM so they don't all need to be updated.

This all brings me round to one last thing to check to confirm if it is a faulty injector which is looking likely at the moment.

Is there any point in running some injector cleaner through with the fuel in these engines?

Cheers
Rob

Hightower · 25 July 2014, 21:53

Have you got on top of the problem yet Rob?

desertrat · 25 July 2014, 22:04

Been on hols for a week mate so not had chance to do anything else yet.

I've managed to confirm that the QR code info is correct and the EMM is programmed with the correct injector details. So it's looking like a sticky fuel injector at the moment although I've got to do another test when I get back to confirm this then arrange to get a new one fitted.

I know this won't be cheap but I've reached the point where I really hope I can prove this is the problem and get it swapped out so I can use the boat.

I'll update this thread as soon as I know more.

Cheers
Rob

desertrat · 07 August 2014, 12:54

Well hopefully this is now resolved!

Last weekend I had chance to swap over the suspected faulty injector with the one next to it to see if the problem moved. However before I actually swapped them we thought we'd try and fire the injector without it being in the cylinder head to see if the spray/nozle looked ok.

This is where we discovered that the actual injector nozle isn't sealed into the injector unless it's clamped into the cylinder head as fuel went everywhere when the injector tried to fire but came from the sides rather than the tip of the nozle.

We then tried to put the injector back into the cylinder head and it wouldn't seal with fuel leaking out when the injector fired.

The cylinder head itself had loads of salt deposits on it as well so what we did was basically clean everything up. Cleaned all of the salt and crud off the cylinder head until the injector slid into place easily.

Thinking the injector was probably knackered now anyway we threw caution to the wind and soaked the injector nozle (which we removed from the injector body when it wouldn't seal) overnight in redex injector cleaner. We also cleaned the injector body of any salt deposits and put some redex into the end of the injector where the nozle fits. We didn't completely strip the injector core out as we didn't have replacement o rings so figured we'd hope the rest was ok and try and clean the tip.

Two good sources of info on the injectors were these two web pages.

Ficht fuel Injector - Rusty Discharge?? - Page 4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-QN-5uTZC7w

After a 24 hour soak we re-assembled the injector, bolted it back into the head and fired her up. She ticked over a dream with no missfire at all, revved to around 1500rpm and still fine.

So yesterday we took her out for a test with some redex in the fuel just to give all the injectors a bit of a clean on a local water skiing lake, she ran no problems or missfires for around an hour so hopefully we've cured it.

Many thanks to everyone who's given advice on here and also Ian at Liverpool powerboats and Mike + Paul at South coast Marine who have all helped find the problem.

I'm hoping we can make the next ribnet cruise in our own boat!

Cheers
Rob