Alternatives to diesel fuel

gavin · 21 April 2004, 17:51

I was speaking to a friend of mine a couple of days ago, its a bit off a side track from boating but the theory is good.I have come across recently a biodiesel truck.The guy who owns the truck used to collect
old oil from chippers etc for free, and use this old oil in large quantities to run his truck.It smells a bit like an old chipper when it is driving.The problem with this type of fuel apart, from the fact it has a higher viscosity than standard diesel is it is especially high in salt, bad for the motor, long term.A more popular product for biodiesel is rape seed which is crushed and used to run the diesel engine.On the forums there was a post recently which spoke about using kerosene as diesel, it will work and I have done it, but bad in its raw state for the motor as it lacks lubricitating properties.I once heard that you can use hydraulic fluid to power a diesel engine, after all we see diesel refeered to as gas oil, and diesel cars as oil burners.A mutual friend of mine and Tims has told us about heavy fuel oil being delivered to the ferrys, in Dublin Port, if you put your hand on the side of the tanker, it is warm.Obviously it flows easier when hot.
The project that I am aware of now is the concept of running a diesel car engine on regular diesel and then changing to svo or standard vegetable oil.The theory is as follows you run the engine on standard diesel and allow the engine to get up to temperature, Fitted in an insulated tank full of svo is a heating element, and piped from this tank to the fuel filter is a flow and return hose with an envelope of hot water around it to keep the svo hot, and allow it to flow easily.The hot hoses are plumbed into the cars system and provide a source of heat to heat the svo.The good thing about using svo is apart from how cheap it is and available, it has good lubriciating properties.When the engine temp is up and the storage tank of hot svo is warm enough, you simply run the car on the oil tank tro a valve system.I am told that it takes about a day to convert the car and that some conversions have done hundreds of thousands of miles on the svo fuel.
Think about this technology being employed in a marine situation,
apart from the benifits to the environment, you would run the engine for practically nothing, i think you can buy vegetable oil for about 60 cents a litre and if you buy non branded stuff, even cheaper than that.Its readily available as a fuel source, exempt from duty, think of how cheap it is if you bought in bulk, and lubricaates as well as burns.
I would have some reseverations about carbon build up, and sooting it might be heavier than normal, I dont know for sure, this of course would not be so good, I am not saying that this is the way to go but certinally food for thought.We are going to run out of petrol and diesel some day!

jwalker · 21 April 2004, 18:00

Have a wee look here Gav. http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_make.html

swginn · 21 April 2004, 20:34

Quote:

We are going to run out of petrol and diesel some day!

Its gonna be one smelly day!!

Interesting idea though, Gavin. Especially with petrol prices in éire.

nik · 22 April 2004, 12:57

I posted this a couple of months ago, it may be worth a repeat here.

Quote:

You must pay the apropriate tax on every litre of fuel however the fuel is made up. There was a system for emulsifying fuel with water, the water content was taxable.
Also, check that rubber components in the engine can take biofuel. Some rubber types will fail after time.
Nick.

codprawn · 22 April 2004, 17:26

Run out of diesel and petrol? NEVER!!! Oil is cheaper now than it has ever been - it's the bloody taxes that cripple! Remember diesel or petrol can be had for as little as 14p per litre wwith NO duty at all.

They seem to be finding new oil reserves all the time - oil will never run out but it may one day get to the stage where it's not economically viable to obtain - that will be a long way away.

Old oil fields actually replenish themselves to a certain extent as oil seeps back into the chambers. More of a worry is the CO2 being emmitted by ALL fossil fuels.

Of course the greens have the perfect answer - wind power............ oh and us all living in caves andd not using any energy!

jwalker · 22 April 2004, 19:47

Mmmm, we keep on using it but it will never run out.

gavin · 22 April 2004, 20:09

Not only will it run out, but so will the products that are derived from petrochemicals example RUBBER
What will we use for rib tubes then

Nick Hearne · 23 April 2004, 07:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by gavin

Not only will it run out, but so will the products that are derived from petrochemicals example RUBBER
What will we use for rib tubes then

Rubber comes from trees dose it not?

Nick

Turbodiesel · 23 April 2004, 07:58

How about LPG?

Cookee · 23 April 2004, 08:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by codprawn

Remember diesel or petrol can be had for as little as 14p per litre wwith NO duty at all.

Can you get me some of the a few barrels of petrol at that price please? Thank you very much!

Scary Des · 23 April 2004, 08:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Turbodiesel

How about LPG?

The trouble with LPG is that although it is currently being supported by the Government from a tax point of view there is nothing to say that they will not start taxing it as soon as enough people start to use it. Call me a cynic (‘you’re a cynic’)but I know how Governments work having just been stuffed on company tax changes after being encourage to go Ltd.
Another problem with LPG is the metering of the fuel, if it’s right it great, but it can be hard to set up and because it is a conversion it is not necessary tuned to that specific engine.

codprawn · 23 April 2004, 11:20

So true - would you trust this government????

They are already saying "the environmental advantages of LPG are now much smaller due to the advances in modern engines" - in other words they do not consider them to be cleaner anymore - yes of course so they must be taxed like petrol - the fact so many people are now using them has NOTHING to do with it of course!

Still they des[erately need the tax to fund wars in Iraq to make us safer and to put speed humps and camera everywhere to again make us safer - I am so happy to be looked after like this.

It is great also to be stopped from kite surfing - caving - mountain climbing and doing any other stupid activity where I may hurt myself!

What is it with this country - all they want to do is BAN things - like flares when some idiot killed somebody with one - the flare used was a parachute rocket - they banned small hand held multishot units..........

Sorry rant over!

codprawn · 23 April 2004, 11:26

When I said oil will NEVER run out I stick by that - if you doubters had read exactly what I said then they would see that it would get to the stage where it is uneconomical to obtain.

Think of gold - obviously there is a finite supply in theory but in practice we will NEVER find it all - it will just go up in price as it starts to get rarer.

It is a bit like needles off a Christmas tree - no matter how many you remove more always turn up!

As to getting hold of petrol at 14p a litre - easy - all we have to do is get a flotilla of ribs - go to Rotterdam and buy off the spot market - fill the tanks and even the tubes and tow all the boats home.............

John Kennett · 23 April 2004, 11:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by codprawn

What is it with this country - all they want to do is BAN things - like flares when some idiot killed somebody with one - the flare used was a parachute rocket - they banned small hand held multishot units..........!

Which flares have been banned? As far as I know miniflare packs are still available.

John

Pete7 · 23 April 2004, 13:16

John the ban he is refering to is not the mini flares with a stick as the trigger but a hand held widget working like a revolver with about 6 shots. They could be aimed and fired horrizontally. Water proof (ish) they were popular with divers a few years ago until removed from the market because they were an effective firearm.

Being a Ribnet Rebel of course I still have one ready for the next paint ball experience.

John Kennett · 23 April 2004, 14:03

Ah, I know the ones you mean. I have seen them on the continent but I hadn't realised that they were ever available in the UK. Live and learn!

John

codprawn · 23 April 2004, 14:22

Yes they were popular with winsurfers and climbers as well. Although they were multishot they were nowhere near as powerful as a proper parachute rocket.

The bloke who was killed would still be here today if one of these had been fired at him instead but of course they had to BAN something..........

sunrider · 29 April 2004, 05:44

I used biodiesel made from soy oil for the circumnavigation I did in a RIB a few years ago. I used 100% for nearly all the 35k miles, mixing with conventional diesel rarely (when someone "misplaced" the fuel). It doesn't smoke, doesn't stink, is good for your hands, ensures a clean and odor free bilge, and the exhaust smells like cooking oil - because it is. The cetane rating and lubricity are both higher than petroleum diesel, particulate emissions are reduced by 30% or more, its biodegradable, renewable, and is really a pleasant change from working with diesel fumes over the transom. It can be used in any diesel engine without modification and can be splashed blended with whatever is in your tank, in any proportion. That's not true, of course, of raw vegetable oil - the fats will eventually cause problems if not treated in some way.

In the US its manufactured from both raw seed and from used oil. I'm in Hawaii at the moment and there is a company here which collects the used oil, processes it, and sells it as fuel (Pacific Biodiesel). Anyone wanting further info can find it all at www.biodiesel.org.

wish it was less expensive!

roohairy · 29 April 2004, 08:47

It is technically possible to run a diesel engine on LPG, there are several large commercial vessels running using this system. They use a modified injector, which has a ring of ports around the diesel injector. Once the engine is running the diesel fuel is isolated at the pump and an electronic management system injects liquid LPG at high pressure through electronic injectors. Speaking to Wartsila engineers who seem to have the system running quite well it seems to be quite good.
I don't know if this will ever be relevant for automotive sized engines, as the cost of having 2 injection systems will be prohibitive when gas at low pressure can readily be burnt in a petrol engine.
What about fuel cells for boats!