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Old 20 June 2013, 03:09   #21
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Allow me to possibly shed some light on why the RYA has had to 'beef up' the Commercial Endorsement for all CoC's with the PPR Course and the changes for the Commercial APB CoC amongst other CoC's.

It must be remembered that the RYA issue CoC's under the authority of the MCA and, due to various incidents and accidents, the MAIB have made recommendations that both MCA and RYA have to consider and act upon. Without going into great detail this is the fundamental reason for the changes.

What we all have to remember is that the RYA Commercially Endorsed CoC's are now more prevalent and are used for many more types of vessels operating in many more sectors of the Marine Industry. Some of these Sectors Clients have decided that, for Health & Safety reasons, the CoC's being used must be robust and stand the test of time. This is one of the reasons why the MCA introduced the MCA STCW 95 Master (Code Vessel) <200gt. (I am aware that there is already a string on this subject as I made a contribution to it). I think we should also remember that the operators in the Small Craft Sector may well be paying up to 6 million for the craft that you may be driving. They want to ensure that you can not only drive the vessel but also have a whole range of knowledge ranging from the law (is the vessel manned correctly and does it have all the necessary vessel/equipment certificates; salvage; required record keeping; carrying of stores and equipment and many more issues) to H & S as it affects the operation of the vessel and other areas.

As someone who holds a valid STCW 95 Master (Unlimited) who had to take the RYA Yachtmaster Offshore and then Ocean in order to be 'recognised' in the 'small craft sector' I can sympathise, however, the fact is we must ensure that Skippers have all the Education and Training necessary in order that they can skipper a 'safe vessel'. Even though I had been sailing 'small craft' for over 40 years I still had to do the RYA examinations and when I did the Ocean the examiner told me he felt embarrassed as I had more Ocean mileage/days on board than he'd ever seen and a great deal more than he had achieved.

Out of interest I have never supported 'grandfather rights' as this means that people transfer without any test of their skills which, educationally, is always totally unacceptable. I am sure that we can all identify people who think they know everything necessary but we know that they don't!

As someone who has worked in the 'small craft sector' for many years I want to make sure that those who don't know what to do are found out before they are in command of a vessel with passengers and crew on board and have a serious accident.

To be honest I believe that what we're talking about here is spending money on our own training and certification so we can work and in my experience that's not unusual in any industry in the UK. I am aware that there are some employers who will pay for training however many of them require you to remain working for them for a period of time which may be as much as 2 years. If you leave before then you pay them back some or all of the costs of training.
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Old 20 June 2013, 03:31   #22
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Spoken like a true RYA disciple
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Old 20 June 2013, 04:33   #23
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Not really a 'true RYA disciple' in fact I've had many disagreements with the RYA over the years.

Check out this MAIB REport which has just been issued today which may help some people understand why things have to change

http://www.maib.gov.uk/cms_resources...ixenReport.pdf

There are many others that have been issued in the past few years which also highlight the issues of Commercial Endorsement of RYA CoC's
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Old 20 June 2013, 05:26   #24
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I hardly read them reports either, I know it sound bad and irresponsible but let me explain, if you dig into those reports and look for marine related incidents you'll find that most of them don't really relate to boat accidents, I will regale a tale of one report that turned up a number of marine related that turned out to be a drunk who fell off a pontoon and that was entered in two different sections, another in which a guy walked into a prop while the boat was on a trailer.
The first one got entered and read something like no life jacket, blah blah blah, entered again somewhere else reading something like ban drinking on boats, the fact that the guy was at a party in the marina and had nothing to do with boats got omitted
The prop accident got entered as marine accident and the boat was in a petrol station on a motorway.
You can't alter all the rules everytime someone has an accident
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Old 20 June 2013, 05:45   #25
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Spoken like a true RYA disciple
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I hardly read them reports either, I know it sound bad and irresponsible....
I think that you may have shed some light on why the PPR exam has to be done by all renewing skippers.
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Old 20 June 2013, 10:10   #26
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You may be right, but no amount of waffling will make it right in my eyes, it wrong, there are more car accidents but they don't penalise the experienced,
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Old 20 June 2013, 11:37   #27
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So why isn't my car insurance 7.50? Never claimed in all the years I've been on an insurance policy at > average miles.


I used to be a dinghy instructor. It expired not long after I got a "real" job. Should I get an auto renewal "coz I still know how to sail a dinghy & can remember that first aid course"? What was it again - 7 pumps & 2 breaths?
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Old 20 June 2013, 12:52   #28
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What was it again - 7 pumps & 2 breaths?
Who are you trying to kid - Hogger Neilson method when you learned surely?
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Old 20 June 2013, 12:58   #29
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Vinny jones style. Bee gee staying alive staying alive
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Old 20 June 2013, 12:59   #30
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So why isn't my car insurance 7.50? Never claimed in all the years I've been on an insurance policy at > average miles.

I used to be a dinghy instructor. It expired not long after I got a "real" job. Should I get an auto renewal "coz I still know how to sail a dinghy & can remember that first aid course"? What was it again - 7 pumps & 2 breaths?
How did we jump from training to insurance
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