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Old 30 December 2012, 18:31   #21
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Evening all,

Think I may have touched a nerve? Firstly this is just my limited opinion, by that I mean I'm not new to driving RIB's, but i am new to the RYA (just completed PPR 3 hours ago) and I'm a big fan of it as it is much more technical and in depth that all,military courses that I have undertaken. And I don't want to come across as a military "know it" all chopper.

While I personally feel they the commercial aspect is a move in the right direction, was anything wrong with the way it was done previously? Before we "had" to me commercially endorsed? (I only know this as I found an old copy of wave length in my desk)

Your not missing anything, we primarily teach out students / cadets to PB2 or intermediate, we have an allowance (financial & educational) to be funded up to APBI, which relates to our military training / experience for anyone billeted as river staff.

And it's good to see how other people teach.

24m RIB fair one, bu that I ment RHIB & displacement etc.
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Old 30 December 2012, 18:55   #22
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I've read and re-read these posts....to pick up on Pauls mention of Steve..and me as an example.

Me -been on and off boats, ribs, yachts, dinghy sailing since age 14, had own boats for maybe 12 years...but not a boaty 'ticket' to my name except a very old VHF course.

Decided I really should sort that out - for no other reason than to maybe learn and prove to myself I have some 'clue'.

Did my PB2 - direct assesment with Brian...I was worried about that the night before! But with Brian being Brian he soon sussed out what I'd been driving and where..but he still made me tow a broken down boat home, put the boat all over the place and I still felt bad I didn't know where the isolated danger mark is in Christchurch .

Steve needed crew shortly after...luckily I wasnt 'working' so spent a season working for him, got to know he boat, its limits, spent time with him and his no1 skipper etc etc..then I thought ..hmm I could learn more..did the various other things.(some with Mr D Stormforce!) - up to and including comm endorsement of Adv PB (with Mr Glatzel indeed - a stupidly cold and icy January night it was !)

So technically I could go up to 24m...but had no intention of it ....ever. But spent days working for Steve over the last two years in all sorts of conditions..so when I was asked could I skipper a 56ft Princess out of Salterns for the airshow in Bouremouth in 2012 I said ' NO WAY ! ' ...I dont have the experiance.....

Would I take out a RIB) I hadn't helmed before --yep its within my ability and experiance...

I have seen, experianced, and been scared witless by what I would call 'big boat' skippers when let loose with a very quick and powerful RIB - having come off something that weighs 50 +tons...

Is it really that hard for an APBI to do a Comm endorsement ? I really really hope not !

I'd best go to bed now....
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Old 30 December 2012, 23:19   #23
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Originally Posted by SW RIB Charter View Post
I think that the 24m size should be reduced, as in my opinion it is not right that someone can take their exam in a 6m single engine RIB, then the next day commercially skipper a 24m twin engine motor cruiser.
I agree with you, and so does the MCA. There is an important point here, one which often gets overlooked, but it's something that any prudent employer should take account of even if it wasn't part of the manning requirements (see Annex 3 of MGN 280 and OAN 678)

The minimum qualification to skipper a coded boat is not limited simply to the Certificate of Competence. OAN 678 states that for a skipper working up to 3nm from safe haven with Advanced Powerboat there is a requirement for 12 months relevant experience, and to work up to 10nm from safe haven that increases to 2 years relevant experience. This is something like the HSE requirement when working ashore under the Provision and Use of Work Equipment Regulations (PUWER) for people operating equipment to be familiar with it, and makes a lot of sense

In my "day job" as training manager for a company employing hundreds of commercially qualified skippers this is something that we cannot ignore. We would never consider allowing someone with a commercially endorsed Advanced Powerboat certificate to simply take command of one of the boats in our fleet (we have over a hundred boats ranging in size from 6 metres to over 20). They must gain relevant experience and that for us means time in that class of boat.
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Old 31 December 2012, 03:55   #24
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The issue of any licence means that an individual has at least met the minimum standards required, on that particular day and in that particular vessel. (think driving test, how many idiots have you seen driving, who in your opinion should not be let loose on the streets!)

As has already been stated, it is then up to the owner/operator to assess and train that person to helm a particular vessel.

I think that this is a very positive step in the right direction for the industry.

Thanks Paul/Pete, this is indeed how we treat all our potential staff, skippers and crew. To often crew (if used) are overlooked as part of the safety of the whole operation.
We have refused to employ a couple of applicants who held a valid commercial tickets ...

Regards
Steve
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Old 31 December 2012, 06:06   #25
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I think although it may cause some RTC a bit of bother short term. I believe the RYA is taking a step in the right direction, for all the reasons mentioned above as well as for the students knowledge.
I you were a student on your advanced powerboat course, with the intention of becoming a commercial RIB skipper. Being taught by an instructor who, yes is good at driving the boat and the background knowledge of nav ect, and was also skilled at the delivery of this knowledge. However has NO experience and has never operated commercially on vessels, I feel the student may lose out on some potential learning.

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Old 31 December 2012, 11:06   #26
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NO experience and has never operated commercially on vessels
This may still be the case perhaps? Having a commercial endorsement doesnt mean you have used it but at least it means the instructor has been tested to an extent.
Anyone any idea of the effects on the commercial examiners who may have no commercial experience, and also own boat adv exams in non coded vessels? Say a candidate wants to use his own (or one that he has borowed from his mate) 6m rib which is nicely kitted out but not coded?
I can see that the RYA had absolutely no choice in the matter and from a SAR background I always thought that the course was an accident waiting to happen, particularly the suitability of some boats and equipment for the way it was taught mainly in winter at some venues when there were so many hours of darkness coupled with cold temperatures. However I am assuming (?) that this is to be in place for this season although I havent seen a date anywhere in which case a bit more notice would have been nice. It doesnt affect me much here as we are all so busy with commercial jobs that we have little time to give over to adv courses, but whilst "the writing has been on the wall" for a while re seating a bit more notice of the coding would surely have helped some centres if indeed it is to be mandatory for 2013. But again perhaps there was little choice in the matter.
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Old 31 December 2012, 12:51   #27
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I thought long and hard whether to contribute to this thread initially. It may be a rod for my own back and I fully accept my views may not be shared by all. I am familiar with MGN 280
The moves put forward by MCA/RYA are indeed progress but one does wonder if they go far enough or perhaps if some criteria are too broad. I believe there is common ground between us and those who achieve Advanced Powerboat Commercial should have the basic principles behind operating a vessel safely, day or night in reasonable conditions.
I accept that the qualifications as they stand allow one to operate a vessel within the range size 6m to 24m. Perhaps the debate is whether this size range is too large. Consider the differences in handling characteristics particularly at close quarters and in a wind. Experience gained over how many years?
I think one must come away from the point that no responsible operator would just let someone loose in an unfamiliar boat. Most commercial operators are responsible. If a company has to Ďrejectí a skipper after familiarisation/onsite training one must ask the question why? Is there a gap between what is required within the exam and what is expected by the industry? We all require a start point and experience, the latter taking time but for some considerable onsite training does not appear to bring the required standard. It is easy to blame the commercial operator for poor training standards but not all RYA Advanced Instructors will have the relevant commercial experience. The commercial operator seeks someone who not only is able to learn but more importantly has the basic skill level. It appears some with the qualification are rejected from posts in a not too demanding boat in not too demanding conditions.
The insistence that those teaching an Advanced Powerboat Commercial should themselves be commercially endorsed is a positive step forward. RYA schools will supply instructors with relevant commercial experience. There are difficulties where those on the same course will have differing end expectations and these will have to be managed..
There are many contributing with a vast range of experience particularly from the teaching perspective. It does require all involved both instructional and boat operator to act responsibly. I am afraid I still believe the bar for commercial operation of vessels does require review and perhaps should be set higher or be more relevant. I try to keep abreast of issues within the industry but I may have missed any opportunities for input from the industry or bodies associated with the industry to the RYA.
For those within the RYA instructional field (and I am not trying to be provocative here) is there an easy guide to direct between RYA Advanced Powerboat and RYA Coastal Skipper when the requirement is to operate a Cat 3 vessel? I do appreciate that to head for Cat 2 itís the Yachtmaster route.
I wish everyone safe boating for 2013 and look forward to the improved training
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Old 31 December 2012, 13:04   #28
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For those within the RYA instructional field (and I am not trying to be provocative here) is there an easy guide to direct between RYA Advanced Powerboat and RYA Coastal Skipper when the requirement is to operate a Cat 3 vessel? I do appreciate that to head for Cat 2 itís the Yachtmaster route.
I wish everyone safe boating for 2013 and look forward to the improved training
Within the letter of the law the Yachtmaster Coastal and the Advanced CoC provide the holder with broadly the same qualification.

The differences include

YM Coastal is required to have at least 50% of the pre required mileage and days in tidal waters where as adv. does not make a differentiation for tidal experience.

Adv CoC holders are specifically required to have gained their experience over 2 years before taking the exam, where as YM Coastal holders could ahve gained a comparable experience over a shorter time frame

Adv holders have to have 12 month or 2 yrs (depending on level of code they are operating under) of relevant experience where as YM Coastal only has to be experienced in the kind of vessel they are operating

Previously the assumed knowledge for Adv and the theory level that the exam is taken to was lower for the Adv exam. However from September the theory level is being brought in line with YM Coastal.

The Adv exam is shorter than the Coastal

The Adv exam should not be conducted with more than three candidates, the Coastal can take place with four

The requirements of the boats used for each exam are different. (i.e. one is one one has a "down below"
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Old 31 December 2012, 13:18   #29
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All that aside I think I may be alone here but I do not want more regulation. I am saddened by the fact we live in a country where a huge amount of the population is constantly screaming that they want more legislation and more regulation. I comply with a huge number of regulations, coding laws, licensing issues in order to run my business and I am 100% convinced that many of them do not make us any safer as a company but do drive up red tape / admin and cost. IN fact I sometimes find people are so pre occupied chasing red tape regulations that they need bringing back to the real world and reminding of what we are actually trying to achieve.


One of the greatest successes of the RYA training scheme is the fact they they do not try to cover every eventuality, they do not create millions of endorsements to cover every specific kind of boat, but they try to encourage good seamanship and good practices.

I come across people every day who mis interpret HSE guidelines, apply ineffective safety systems to their operation and in fact often completly mis the point of what we are trying to do in the first place. Although not commercial I place a massive importance on the fact that the UK does not have compulsory licensing for leisure craft.
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Old 31 December 2012, 13:24   #30
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Quote:
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For those within the RYA instructional field (and I am not trying to be provocative here) is there an easy guide to direct between RYA Advanced Powerboat and RYA Coastal Skipper when the requirement is to operate a Cat 3 vessel? I do appreciate that to head for Cat 2 itís the Yachtmaster route.
Hi Tony - also not wishing to be provocative - but an Advanced Powerboat Instuctor/Examiner can only work with the calibre of student that presents themselves to them and in my experience that is very often not great - and a lot of them are only there because they "have to be" and want the "piece of paper" in the easiest/quickest and in the case of some employers the cheapest way possible.
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