MCA coding for Advanced Powerboat courses.

[Searider]

Originally Posted by Tim M

You can operate in the Solent at night with the appropriate local area licence. Given that the local area licence requirements now largely follow MGN280 (with a few exceptions) it would seem a bit odd if this wasn't acceptable!

I have a customer with a RIB certificated by Eastleigh Borough Council vis hamble Harbour Master and they confirm that this Local Authority certification is acceptable to the RYA for operation in categorised waters - ie the Solent.

[Searider]

Originally Posted by C2 RIBS

Reading this document OAN 678 does suggest a dry suit for all but if I recal this was for the open RIBS operating unrestricted and where we operate cat3R then suitable clothing MUST be worn which is accepted as proper waterproof for weather conditions expected.

I hope Duncan will be along shortly to discuss these coding issues.

To clarify, OAN678 was put out by MCA in 2010 in order to state how they were happy for open RIBs to operate in darkness.

The code requires a "Substantial enclosure" for all vessels operating in darkness - ie Category 3. This means a GRP wheelhouse. Prior to OAN678 operators and surveyors were requesting "equivalence" by suggesting a portable canopy / tarpaulin / etc. Some of these were quite good, some were not and it was left to the integrity of the surveyor to propose to the MCA that this be allowed.

Now we have OAN678 it's crystal clear what's allowed - look at the matrix on the final page.

For example, if you only want to operate in favourable weather, up to 3 miles from a safe haven, then you only need to wear lifejackets and provide suitable clothing along with the flares and lights over and above your category 4/5/6 coding. This is what most people want.

We've been applying OAN678 since 2010 with no problems.

Regards

Duncan

[LHR1966]

I hold a commercially endorsed Adv PB CoC inc PPR and a YM coastal theory cert with current, ongoing commercial experience. I am also a PBI & PWCI. The Training Manager at the RYA has just told me that in his eyes my competency is Coastal Skipper at best???? I want to become a Shorebased Instructor. To do this, he tells me I now need to be a APBI - RYA website currently being updated.
Can someone tell me what part of the APBI syllabus I have not covered or demonstrated by passing my Adv PB CoC examination?
I do not want to sit in an open boat at speed teaching people to drive in the dark (although I have proven I can do it) - I want to teach theory in the comfort of a classroom.....what further skills am I proving by passing my APBI.....other than I am capable of writing yet another cheque to the RYA for hundreds of pounds???? HNY to you all....

[Skippy John]

LHR 1966

It's not just having used the content of the syllabus but in fact knowing the syllabus, all the wrinkles and being able to prove that you have a depth of experience to be able to deliver the depth and breadth of knowledge necessary for someone to achieve the required standard to pass the YM Shorebased Course.

One of my colleagues holds an Unlimited Master CoC and the RYA wouldn't, at first, allow him to take the Shorebased Instructors Accreditation Course as they thought he had insufficient 'small craft' experience. when they were advised of his commercial and leisure experience of small craft (he owned his own sail boat) they agreed he could take the Accreditation Course.

I think that the RYA are doing their utmost to protect us from ourselves. Remember that they have the MCA looking over their shoulder making sure that they are Accreditting appropriate Training Providers and Instructors. what i think we miss sometimes is that unless we ensure the RYA CoC's remain robust the MCA could remove them from MGN 280 and MSN 1802 and then we'd all be in a mess.

[Will75]

I agree with the new rule.

I have a Master 200 Unlimited, Ocean YM Power Commercial, Adv PB, PPR, GOC, STCW BST etc etc etc but I don't claim to have sufficient teaching experience to deliver a YM shore based course. Teaching is different to doing.

[Skippy John]

Without doubt teaching and doing are two entirely different skills and many people can do one or the other but not both.

There is a saying "Them what can't do teach". This saying can be very cruel really as there are some of us out there that can do both and very sucessfully as well.

[LHR1966]

Thank you Skippy J. I find yr posts to be both balanced and insightful unlike the caustic and flippant posts of Will and Doug SF. Good news tho - the end result is that I can now see a way forward. No point giving Doug many hundreds of pounds to pass out as a APBI because, like I said, I don't want to be a APBI .....this does NOT make me a bad instructor or not worthy of being a RYA member!!!!! I want to be a SBI so its YM CoC for me.

[Will75]

What a silly post.

[dally]

no place for modesty on this thread then

[Solent Ranger]

Originally Posted by C2 RIBS

What date have they set for rules to change?

It is with immediate effect! I am organising things for next week Fortunately I run in all but name, so apart from the life raft and "sniffer" I am pretty much there.

[wavelength]

It is with immediate effect!

is that right? Others on here say 2014 after the discussions/meetings this year. I didnt see any date specified when I looked thru the paperwork when it first arrived which is either my eyesight or a major flaw in the information.

[Solent Ranger]

Originally Posted by wavelength

is that right? Others on here say 2014 after the discussions/meetings this year. I didnt see any date specified when I looked thru the paperwork when it first arrived which is either my eyesight or a major flaw in the information.

I asked the question last week when I was down at HQ and was told that it was from now . There will be a workshop at the PB conference on 3rd Feb. I won't be there as I am at YM do the week before.

[wavelength]

ok....a badly drafted bit of info from the RYA if we are having to ask when it comes in. I had sort of assumed it was this year after reading the info over Christmas (hicc!) but then I've had a couple of PMs/e mails after I asked the question on here telling me it was 2014, but if you have asked HQ then so be it......confusion apparently reigns.

[Ribochet]

Originally Posted by wavelength

ok....a badly drafted bit of info from the RYA if we are having to ask when it comes in. .

Couldn't agree more

[Solent Ranger]

Originally Posted by wavelength

ok....a badly drafted bit of info from the RYA if we are having to ask when it comes in. I had sort of assumed it was this year after reading the info over Christmas (hicc!) but then I've had a couple of PMs/e mails after I asked the question on here telling me it was 2014, but if you have asked HQ then so be it......confusion apparently reigns.

I agree and not sure where it really leaves those that run advanced courses but don't have coded boats.

From my perspective, it does not really matter when it takes effect: if I want to run advanced courses then I need to code my boat/s accordingly. So I am doing it my time, not being given a deadline and then "panicking" because it has to be done by .........

If we really consider it, every boat needs to comply as it is for "hire or reward". I have to comply on the motor cruising side of things, so what is the difference under the powerboat scheme? There is exemption for PB 2 and Intermediate in Cat 6 areas, but operating at night is a different scenario .

[Skippy John]

Just maybe we should all be thinking a little deeper about this matter especially iof you are RYA Aoved TC's delivering power boat training.

Throughout all RYA Courses whether theory, practical sail/power cruising or PB there is a critical thread and that is safety. Bearing this in mind and the requirements for APB can anyone tell me why the boats on which people are receiving training shouldn't be coded? all sail/power cruising TC's have to code all the craft they use so what's the difference with APB TC's?

May I again remind everyone that the RYA have to consider the views of the MCA who in turn have to consider the recommendations of the MAIB in all aspects of education, training and issues relating to CoC's. If they don't then the RYA will loose their position as the 'small craft' Body. this happened in USA and now we have IYT Worldwide delivering courses with the same syllabii as all the RYA Courses.

[tim griffin]

Originally Posted by Solent Ranger

I agree and not sure where it really leaves those that run advanced courses but don't have coded boats.

From my perspective, it does not really matter when it takes effect: if I want to run advanced courses then I need to code my boat/s accordingly. So I am doing it my time, not being given a deadline and then "panicking" because it has to be done by .........

If we really consider it, every boat needs to comply as it is for "hire or reward". I have to comply on the motor cruising side of things, so what is the difference under the powerboat scheme? There is exemption for PB 2 and

Intermediate in Cat 6 areas, but operating at night is a different scenario .

Does any one know when it comes in to effect as some say now, some say end of the year some 2014, I would have thought that the RYA Inspectors will need to updated before this comes in .
I am trying to book on the inspectors update for March but anyone going to Wyboston will be updated first.Is anyone going from here ? can I blag a lift .

A very interesting thread from Schools and Surveyors points of view especially on the MCA and Local Authority requirements.

I am all for it, as stated by someone else my Mobo has to be coded for the Helmsman course up to Yachtmaster work up so why not Advanced.
Reason behind PB2 not being included is probably all the sailing clubs that offer PB2 and Safety boat the cost would be prohibitive to spec the boats.
Happy New Year by the way to you all.
Tim

[Doug Stormforce]

Originally Posted by tim griffin

I am all for it, as stated by someone else my Mobo has to be coded for the Helmsman course up to Yachtmaster work up so why not Advanced.
Reason behind PB2 not being included is probably all the sailing clubs that offer PB2 and Safety boat the cost would be prohibitive to spec the boats.
Happy New Year by the way to you all.
Tim

I am completely the opposite, I don't believe it is necessary. RYA centres and their craft are inspected annually,they effectively operate from a NDP and they push a much smaller weather window than much of the offshore industry. I think it is fantastic that the RYA have kept the burden of unnecessary admim, cost and regulation away from us for so long, I am saddened that part of the exemption has now been removed. How long before a bit more is eroded and we end up having to carry a life raft on a windsurf board used for training.

On a personal note my RIBs are coded anyway so from a business point of view the new system is good for me, however I do not value the coding process, I think it is poorly written, poorly managed poorly enforced and much of the code is irrelevant to a lot of boats. The RYA have managed to keep it away from RIB school for a long time and for good reason.

In the 16 years I have been teaching advanced power courses (and the year before I ran them but they were in place), I don't believe that having coded boats would have made the courses better. In fact the course would probabally never have got of the ground.

On another note the move to having 4 forward facing seats aft of the console is I believe very sensible.

Tim and David, you both give motor boats as an example/comparison. The motor cruising scheme is a very different animal

• It in the Offshore Cruising Scheme
• Boats operate from un inspected sites
• Students can live aboard
• Boats do not necassarily return to base each day

I am well aware that a lot of operators like to see rules tightened up but the Hayling Trailers thread is a classic example of why stricter regs are not necessarily required. Personally I would like to see the RYA devote more time to fighting the more ridiculous parts of the code for all operators.

Most supporters of this new regulation have complained openly about the coded many times.

[Tim M]

Originally Posted by Doug Stormforce

I don't believe that having coded boats would have made the courses better.

Better or safer? Not disagreeing with you but I can see the logic, especially as the advanced course if often used as an entry into commercial operations where you would need to be familiar with the extra kit found on a coded boat.

[Doug Stormforce]

Originally Posted by Tim M

Better or safer? Not disagreeing with you but I can see the logic, especially as the advanced course if often used as an entry into commercial operations where you would need to be familiar with the extra kit found on a coded boat.

Having the necessary kit on board is one thing. The RYA have always provided a list of required equipment and it is one of the things that is checked at the annual inspection. If you set up a yachting centre overseas with a non UK flagged yacht you still comply with the RYA training vessel checklist BUT you are not MCA coded (you may have to license under local regs, depending on which country/flag state).

We could debate all day how valuable some of the coding rules actualy are. There has been great discussion on this forum about having to carry exposure/survival suits if waters are below 10 degs (but not actually having to wear them). Not dissimilar to the code saying a powerboat should carry life jackets but the RYA saying something much more sensible- (i.e. on powerboat courses you will wear life jackets).

For our last code inspection we had to buy a hydrocarbon detector, the surveyor actually told me, "once you have fitted it, switch it of as it will just beep all of the time. They are ****** useless but I have to see one to give yo your certificate."

My earlier point however was that I have not heard of any accidents that have occurred on advanced courses that would have been avoided if the boat had been coded, nor have I heard of near misses in the same situation.

My other point was coding itself is rubbish. The MCA have painted all boats with one colour when we all know that all boats are different, they have left very little room for qualified skippers and surveyors to follow common sense, what they have actually done is legislate on the basis of every accident that has ever occurred.