MCA and Southern Irish passenger rules and regs.

[Matal Mickey]

Purely for argument solving purposes, can anyone help with this query, it would solve a lot of bar talk in the boat club!
1. Can an MCA British coded, 12 passenger, boat, class three (we think) 30 miles from a safe haven use an Irish port to collect Irish fare paying passengers? Hypotethically say from Dublin/Dundalk to IOM and then Wales?
2. Is this journey legal under Irish marine rules and regs?
3. Is this journey legal under MCA rules and regs?
4. Can a North Irish registered and based MCA boat fully licensed by MCA, operate in Southern Irish waters collecting Southern Irish fare paying passengers from say Dundalk/Dublin etc?

The opposite question is:
1. Can an Irish boat of say their P3 catergory leave it's own port of Dundalk/Dublin and travel to the same destination IOM/Wales, or even Northern Ireland and operate?
2. Can an Irish registered P3 boat operate out of England or The Isle of Man, collecting British fare paying passengers for general trips?

Appreciate any useful comments on all this please. Forgive me if it sounds and looks confusing, we hope that you all get the basic query.

[Doug Stormforce]

Mickey

In simple terms a boat has to be coded under its own flag. i.e. if its British then under the British code. Regardless of where it operates it has to follow
the laws of its flag state and where coding is concerned its usual limits apply evene when outside territorial waters or in another countries waters.

Seperatly certain ports/countries impose extra rules but this is quite rare and I dont think the case in your examples.

[Matal Mickey]

Having gained substancial further information, regretably this is the answer to the original post. NO, we (British coded,registered passenger commercial boats) are not allowed to collect or drop off fare paying passengers from anywhere in Irish waters, Harbours and or Ports. We are catorgorically not allowed to operate (trade) in this marine business without firstly applying for a boat licence, Secondly, have our boats inspected and brought up to Irish Specification for passengers and finally, have our British Skippers and Crew tickets (qualifications) transfered to the Irish Marine equilivant.
What a shock! Anyone got any other input on this bombshell???

[Andy Gee]

Originally Posted by Matal Mickey

Purely for argument solving purposes, can anyone help with this query, it would solve a lot of bar talk in the boat club!
1. Can an MCA British coded, 12 passenger, boat, class three (we think) 30 miles from a safe haven use an Irish port to collect Irish fare paying passengers? Hypotethically say from Dublin/Dundalk to IOM and then Wales?
2. Is this journey legal under Irish marine rules and regs?
3. Is this journey legal under MCA rules and regs?
4. Can a North Irish registered and based MCA boat fully licensed by MCA, operate in Southern Irish waters collecting Southern Irish fare paying passengers from say Dundalk/Dublin etc?

The opposite question is:
1. Can an Irish boat of say their P3 catergory leave it's own port of Dundalk/Dublin and travel to the same destination IOM/Wales, or even Northern Ireland and operate?
2. Can an Irish registered P3 boat operate out of England or The Isle of Man, collecting British fare paying passengers for general trips?

Appreciate any useful comments on all this please. Forgive me if it sounds and looks confusing, we hope that you all get the basic query.

Vince,
I would have thought that you would have had previous experience of this having run to both the North and South.
Andy

[Matal Mickey]

Originally Posted by Andy Gee

Vince,
I would have thought that you would have had previous experience of this having run to both the North and South.
Andy

It is assumed that many many people would have known about this situation, however, not! Did you know or have any input on this important subject. Please enlighten all of us!

[Andy Gee]

Originally Posted by Matal Mickey

It is assumed that many many people would have known about this situation, however, not! Did you know or have any input on this important subject. Please enlighten all of us!

Vince,
As for "all of us" I see that you are the only one interested!!
As a Naval Arc/Surveyor you will know about the "Memorandum of Understanding" between European Member States and specifically Load Line Certificates.
Andy

[hobbit555]

I know this thread is very old.
Speaking from past experience and being stuck in ireland for a while, Taking a UK coded work boat to Eire is an absolute minefield including having STCW skipper and crew. The main problems we incured were paper work, and basically the irish surveyors having no ability to interperate the rules sensibily.
They wouldn't recgonise the code of practice certificates and we weren't even wanting to take passengers to sea.

[Rogue Wave]

Originally Posted by hobbit555

I know this thread is very old.
Speaking from past experience and being stuck in ireland for a while, Taking a UK coded work boat to Eire is an absolute minefield including having STCW skipper and crew. The main problems we incured were paper work, and basically the irish surveyors having no ability to interperate the rules sensibily.
They wouldn't recgonise the code of practice certificates and we weren't even wanting to take passengers to sea.

Weymouth You involved with Johnny tugboat!

[alant1]

Originally Posted by Matal Mickey

Purely for argument solving purposes, can anyone help with this query, it would solve a lot of bar talk in the boat club!
1. Can an MCA British coded, 12 passenger, boat, class three (we think) 30 miles from a safe haven use an Irish port to collect Irish fare paying passengers? Hypotethically say from Dublin/Dundalk to IOM and then Wales?
2. Is this journey legal under Irish marine rules and regs?
3. Is this journey legal under MCA rules and regs?
4. Can a North Irish registered and based MCA boat fully licensed by MCA, operate in Southern Irish waters collecting Southern Irish fare paying passengers from say Dundalk/Dublin etc?

The opposite question is:
1. Can an Irish boat of say their P3 catergory leave it's own port of Dundalk/Dublin and travel to the same destination IOM/Wales, or even Northern Ireland and operate?
2. Can an Irish registered P3 boat operate out of England or The Isle of Man, collecting British fare paying passengers for general trips?

Appreciate any useful comments on all this please. Forgive me if it sounds and looks confusing, we hope that you all get the basic query.

__________________________________________________ _______________

I do some freelance skippering work with a UK based Shipping Company, who sometimes need to send British flagged workboats to Ireland.
Normally, since there are never more that 12 people aboard + most are British crew, these can be operated in UK with a commercially endorsed RYA certificate.

However, in Ireland, they will not recognise these & insist upon STCW 95 + Master 200 qualifications. This is also the case in a number of other euro countries, including Denmark.

[Andy Gee]

Originally Posted by alant1

__________________________________________________ _______________

I do some freelance skippering work with a UK based Shipping Company, who sometimes need to send British flagged workboats to Ireland.
Normally, since there are never more that 12 people aboard + most are British crew, these can be operated in UK with a commercially endorsed RYA certificate.

However, in Ireland, they will not recognise these & insist upon STCW 95 + Master 200 qualifications. This is also the case in a number of other euro countries, including Denmark.

A lot of these Euro problems are being addressed in the new Boatmasters Certificate, however some of the major players in the tug world are not very happy about this and think that it will now all be to easy to get a licence for the big (25t + bollard pull) tugs and want some form of restricition put on them.
Andy

[alant1]

Originally Posted by Andy Gee

A lot of these Euro problems are being addressed in the new Boatmasters Certificate, however some of the major players in the tug world are not very happy about this and think that it will now all be to easy to get a licence for the big (25t + bollard pull) tugs and want some form of restricition put on them.
Andy

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What specifically is being proposed, that is fundamentally different to the current ones?

How will they become 'acceptable' in Europe & how far off will any changes be?

Also, these are restricted to 3 miles out from a safe haven, so vessels arriving and departing various waters, when more than 3 miles off, will come under a different manning qualification requirement for these bits presumably.

[Andy Gee]

Originally Posted by alant1

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What specifically is being proposed, that is fundamentally different to the current ones?

How will they become 'acceptable' in Europe & how far off will any changes be?

Also, these are restricted to 3 miles out from a safe haven, so vessels arriving and departing various waters, when more than 3 miles off, will come under a different manning qualification requirement for these bits presumably.

Do a search on the MCGA website for Boatmasters and you will see. A lot of changes if you do not already hold a Boatmasters, more of a progressive learning rather really just a test with different sectors.
AFAIK the changes have happened in November to allow Europe to have acomlete harmonised certification for inshore <3 miles operation and Catergorised waters. Do not get confused with the Boatmasters and the RYA type certificates whiah again some EU member will not accept unless they are to STCW standards.
Andy

[Rogue Wave]

Originally Posted by hobbit555

I know this thread is very old.
Speaking from past experience and being stuck in ireland for a while, Taking a UK coded work boat to Eire is an absolute minefield including having STCW skipper and crew. The main problems we incured were paper work, and basically the irish surveyors having no ability to interperate the rules sensibily.
They wouldn't recgonise the code of practice certificates and we weren't even wanting to take passengers to sea.

We had a Port State spin in Belfast first thing the guy said to me 'is this the boat that was in Dublin' I blamed the probs all on you

[alant1]

Originally Posted by Andy Gee

Do a search on the MCGA website for Boatmasters and you will see. A lot of changes if you do not already hold a Boatmasters, more of a progressive learning rather really just a test with different sectors.
AFAIK the changes have happened in November to allow Europe to have acomlete harmonised certification for inshore <3 miles operation and Catergorised waters. Do not get confused with the Boatmasters and the RYA type certificates whiah again some EU member will not accept unless they are to STCW standards.
Andy

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Do not get confused with the Boatmasters and the RYA type certificates whiah again some EU member will not accept unless they are to STCW standards."

Andy, does the RYA Endorse STCW95 on their certificates these days then?

PS - This is a reply I got from the MCA recently, when asking about BML's & Europe

" 'BML Tier 1' as a stand alone certificate will not be recognised
in EU waterways . Further modules and requirements are to be satisfied
before obtaining a EU Boatmaster's certificate . For details,
you may refer to the 'Annex 4 ( page 19)' of the ' MSN 1808' .
However, the assessment system for some of these competence
requirements are yet to be established."

From that, I read that they still do not know what is happening, even though BML/Cardiff have told me that they (Tier 1, level 2) are available.
I currently have a BML Grade 1, which upon renewal, will be Tier 2 under the new system & Cardiff suggested that I look at Tier 1 before renewal. However, still mystified how this works.

[Andy Gee]

Originally Posted by alant1

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Andy, does the RYA Endorse STCW95 on their certificates these days then?

Yes you can get RYA Yachmaster changed to STCW type by completing some additional STCW courses.
Andy