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Old 19 August 2011, 14:41   #71
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I saw a picture in a book or magazine several years ago which showed you can see sweet fa from the bridge of a container vessel - perhaps 1/2 a mile ahead is completely blind, and a yacht at 1 mile is pretty small looking and at 20 knots only 3 minutes away - there was a kind of arrow/vector on the picture showing how far the ship could realistically get out the way at full turn. Combined with anchorhandlers pics above which show just how small and insignificant a yacht is (I had to look twice at both pics just to find it!) and how far away a yacht is which is considered "at close quarters" (I bet the skippers thought they were quite far away).
Some pics and diagrams for reference. This is from a 330m tanker, slightly bigger than what you usually find in the Solent but should provide some ideas.

James
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Old 19 August 2011, 14:58   #72
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No but rest assured that if you were a haulage company which had a problem with "stupid people" getting in the way of people reversing into your yard, (the equivalent to a tanker arriving at the terminal) then the burden would be on you to operate a safe system of work - which might involve banksmen, signage, warning announcements etc. If there was a problem with cyclists riding on the pavement outside the refinery getting in the way of road-tanker drivers I believe your company would be trying to address it.
[/QUOTE]

Errm actually no.....if we operated a haulage yard and 'stupid people' were causing an abstruction to wagons turnng into the yard (from a public highway) we would be looking at contacting the local council's traffic managment department to see if anything could be done. It would be their resposibility to install signage/warnings. Yes, the burden would be on us to do something but we would be powerless to change anything outside of our yard perimiter. In the case of near miss's on the Solent, a very similar situation exists.....yes we as a company would like to reduce the number of yacht/boats entering the restricted zone (both around commercial ships and alongside the refinery) but all we can do is complain to ABP. We have no power or jurisdiction to inforce any of the local by-laws.

The problem is more noticable here on the Solent because of the density ratio of leisure/commercial traffic. Unfortunately there is only a limited number of Harbour Master launches (SP's) and to expect every commercial vessel entering the Port of Southampton's waters to be escorted would be unrealistic.

I do agree the real problem needs to be tackled at source...ie; the leisure boater however as i have previously mentioned, i'm not convinced mandatory qualifications would be the answer. (Well not the qualifications available to us at the moment anyway). Quite a high proportion of incidents we experience are caused by pure arrogance and not as a result of a misunderstanding of the rules and regulations.
I spend 90% of my time leisure boating on the continent where qualifications are insited on before taking to the water however even 'over there' i have witnessed some stunning examples of poor seamanship. The biggest issue i have in both countries is what appears to be, not a lack of boat handling/navigating skills but a lack of common courtesy to other boaters both leisure and commercial.
Some boaters out there seem to know the rules but deliberately choose to ignore them. (and that i'm afraid will not change even WITH mandatory qual's)

Simon
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Old 19 August 2011, 15:16   #73
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Some pics and diagrams for reference. This is from a 330m tanker, slightly bigger than what you usually find in the Solent but should provide some ideas.

James
'Evening James...

If i was a betting man i would say that looked suspiciously like a 'British' Petroleum tanker.....

Simon
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Old 19 August 2011, 15:19   #74
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Some pics and diagrams for reference. This is from a 330m tanker, slightly bigger than what you usually find in the Solent but should provide some ideas.

James
I am not trying to blame the tanker here...

But given the advances in close circuit video feeds there's really no reason to a 450+m blind spot anywhere. Mount a webcam on the bow and stream the numpties onto the internet live!
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Old 19 August 2011, 15:50   #75
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'Evening James...

If i was a betting man i would say that looked suspiciously like a 'British' Petroleum tanker.....
Simon
You would be correct simon, did the green deck give it away . The picture is of a Bird Class ship and the diagrams are from a P Class VLCC that im currently sailing on.

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I am not trying to blame the tanker here...

But given the advances in close circuit video feeds there's really no reason to a 450+m blind spot anywhere. Mount a webcam on the bow and stream the numpties onto the internet live!
You would think they would fit them yes, the current ship im on has a camera mounted on the foremast which allows some degree of vision but still isn't mounted in the correct position to provide good viewing of small boats at close range ahead.

James
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Old 19 August 2011, 16:12   #76
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You would be correct simon, did the green deck give it away . The picture is of a Bird Class ship and the diagrams are from a P Class VLCC that im currently sailing on.
...not much of a challenge really was it?.

Probably have an unfair advantage as during my 'early' years at sea i spent quite some years serving aboard Esso's old international fleet (Esso Kawasaki, Hawaii Honolulu and Demetia) and used to pop across the sea-island at Ras Tanura to visit freinds on the old Brittish Ranger.....that and many of the new fleet are frequent customers here at Fawley/BPJ....

In what capacity are you sailing as?

Have a good trip at any rate....

Simon
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Old 19 August 2011, 16:29   #77
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You would think they would fit them yes, the current ship im on has a camera mounted on the foremast which allows some degree of vision but still isn't mounted in the correct position to provide good viewing of small boats at close range ahead.

James
So if not for this well suited for this purpose what is the foremast camera being used for? Or is it just a compromise all the way around?

I mean I have a backup camera on my pickup truck, color and everything. Its in the tailgate pointing down at about a 75deg angle. The viewfinder is in the rearview mirror. I can back up to the trailer hitch in one go perfectly everytime, and parallel park where most people couldn't believe.
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Old 19 August 2011, 16:44   #78
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So if not for this well suited for this purpose what is the foremast camera being used for? Or is it just a compromise all the way around?

I mean I have a backup camera on my pickup truck, color and everything. Its in the tailgate pointing down at about a 75deg angle. The viewfinder is in the rearview mirror. I can back up to the trailer hitch in one go perfectly everytime, and parallel park where most people couldn't believe.
Hey Captnjack

if i may answer also..

Think of it this way.....

you install a camera in the front grill of your pick-up truck just under the hood to cover the 'blind spot' area that you can not see from the driving position....
Now think of the practicalities of using this camera as, unless your driving extreemly slowly, by the time you see on the screen something in front of you and you apply the brakes, your probably going to hit it!.....
Camera's mounted on the forecastle of large commercial ships only have limited effectivness for the same reason. You may be able to see something in the blind spot in front of the bow but the odds are your going to struggle to alter course or stop in time to avoid an incident.

A camera mounted on the bow of the kutsen ship during the Cowes incident would have been very little help in avoiding the collision.

Its a valid question though.

Simon

P.S. like the viewfinder built into the rear view mirror...not seen one of those...very cool indeed!
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Old 19 August 2011, 17:17   #79
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Hey Captnjack

if i may answer also..

Think of it this way.....

you install a camera in the front grill of your pick-up truck just under the hood to cover the 'blind spot' area that you can not see from the driving position....
Now think of the practicalities of using this camera as, unless your driving extreemly slowly, by the time you see on the screen something in front of you and you apply the brakes, your probably going to hit it!.....
Camera's mounted on the forecastle of large commercial ships only have limited effectivness for the same reason. You may be able to see something in the blind spot in front of the bow but the odds are your going to struggle to alter course or stop in time to avoid an incident.

A camera mounted on the bow of the kutsen ship during the Cowes incident would have been very little help in avoiding the collision.

Its a valid question though.

Simon

P.S. like the viewfinder built into the rear view mirror...not seen one of those...very cool indeed!
Yeah not so much thinking the tanker could actually do anything sustantive in this case. But in other cases it may relieve alot of pilot anxiety over "where did that boat go"? Maybe when its not all that obvious they have made a suitable course correction etc. Or maybe when they aren't actually in the blindspot at all and have moved elsewhere. Sometimes its not about what's in the blindspot, its confirming what isn't. Not to mention it would be great evidence in an inquiry. Or for that live internet feed
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Old 21 August 2011, 16:37   #80
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And we wonder why training/certification is compulsory in Europe?

This sort of behavior is outrageous and I can't imagine why commercial traffic should have to bear the responsibility for avoiding flotillas of lemmingesque amateur boatsters.

They are not supposed to be there at that time. Just as they shouldn't be driving the wrong direction on roads, or skate boarding on runways.

Five blasts and be done with it!
I do not know the answer, but I can share some experience from my part of Europe.
I am living in Hamburg, one of the busiest ports in Europe and in the world. I do not know the actual figures of how many yachts (sail) are between the North Sea and Hamburg. An indication could be, that the Marina in the west of Hamburg is considered to be Europe's biggest in tidal waters with 2000+ berths.
We have sailing regattas with up to 150 competitors, from short distance to races down the river and up again. The racing area is the river, ie a channel marked by buoys plus varying space at each side. It is difficult, with lots of tide and difficult weather.
Each and every sailing instruction is referring to colregs, local by-law, and gives commercial traffic right-of-way.

We have not seen incidents like the one at Cowes Week for quiet a while. A reason might be, that the local clubs have established a good relationship with Coast Guard, Port Authority and the Pilots. In practical terms, reps of clubs and authorities meet at least once per year - typically in the winter - to discuss issues. In addition, we are arranging for "get to know" meetings to raise understanding for each other.

The result is, that for many years in a row no near miss or even incident was recorded by pilots, coast guard, or port authority.

In terms of certification, a certificate for vessels with more than 5HP on the engine is compulsory by law. In addition, the German Sailing Association requires skipper to have a certificate issued by the German Sailing Association and valid for the area if racing in Germany.

Maybe the explanation is not certification or a good communication between authorities and yotties. Maybe it is, that the WAFI's are on the Baltic Lake, which is much easier to sail.

kind regards
Jan
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