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Old 26 October 2013, 04:36   #231
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Don't you imagine that the conversation between the sailor and his lawyer went something like this:

Sailor: I am in real trouble about this. What do you advise?
Lawyer: Well I would plead not guilty if I were you.
S: Why, I am as guilty as hell?
L: Well not guilty doesn't mean you didn't do it, it merely says to the prosecution "Prove it". And it will be a very complicated case with all those colregs etc. so you stand a good chance of being found not guilty/proven.
S: Well what about the costs then?
L: Don't worry about the costs-we'll get Armed Forces Legal to pay any costs, IF, IF, you are found guilty. Even if you, do you will only get a little fine. Same as if you plead guilty. No brainer really.

Just supposing really.
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Old 26 October 2013, 04:36   #232
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What about credibility, honesty, integrity?
If you make a mistake no matter how big surely better to say so?
Better not to have a legal conviction for job applications etc... ...in reality this isn't much different to causing an accident by jumping a red light. Minor injuries etc. You may get charged with Dangerous Driving etc which I think most job applications would expect to be declared or you may get charged with jumping the lights which most wouldn't expect I don't think (although maybe thats only if you take a fixed penalty).

Its fine to hold your hands up and say you got it wrong. He may have been better to do that and say 'Yes your honour, I did enter the MPZ, I did inhibit the ship in its passage, but I was keeping a proper lookout - I did know the ship was there and we thought we were on a safe course." and then to explain that the ship was turning caused confusion as a mitigating circumstances. I'm think the fine should have been reduced if he did that.
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Old 26 October 2013, 04:47   #233
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i got told that if you get leagl aid for anything, it isnt exactly free, as if you own your own home they can put a charge on it so as to recoup the money at some later date such as when the house gets sold following death etc. does anyone know if thats true, and if so, would that be the case with the legal aid offered by the mod?
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Old 26 October 2013, 08:49   #234
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Well Mud sticks .. if nothing else he'll be remembered for his actions, whilst being a professional sailor above all, I suppose. Regardless of his ignorance/arrogance If this is what our naval colleges or services are putting out, between him and his colleagues who manage to run a multi million pound nuke sub aground in the shallows .. gawd help us
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Old 26 October 2013, 17:47   #235
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Are the costs he is liable for not those of the prosecution? In addition to his (which may or may not be paid by the legal aid).

Given that it is a MOVING exclusion zone maybe the motorboat wasn't in it when he broke down?

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Old 27 October 2013, 02:47   #236
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He won't get legal aid, he earns too much and has assets.
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Old 27 October 2013, 04:27   #237
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I've been corrected on the Armed Forces Legal Aid - he may well have got Legal Aid from them but they will have warned him that if he got found guilty they will come after the money.
Unless he declares himself bankrupt the tax payer should be ok.
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Old 27 October 2013, 13:23   #238
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian View Post
S: Why, I am as guilty as hell?
L: Well not guilty doesn't mean you didn't do it, it merely says to the prosecution "Prove it". And it will be a very complicated case with all those colregs etc. so you stand a good chance of being found not guilty/proven.
If you ever get yourself in a corner try and avoid that conversation with your lawyer. The aren't allowed to defend you if they KNOW you are guilty. Now if your conversation was:
"I don't think it was ALL my fault the big ship tooted to say he was going round the corner then didn't turn and ploughed straight into me." the lawyer may have said "OK we might have a case to argue and with a bit of luck you'll get a judge who knows nothing about boats and we can get them confused with all the rules and stuff about you only being able to sail with the wind etc"

Quote:
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i got told that if you get leagl aid for anything, it isnt exactly free, as if you own your own home they can put a charge on it so as to recoup the money at some later date
I gather that's if you want legal aid to pursue or maybe defend a civil case. This was a crown vs defendant job so I don't think it applies.

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Are the costs he is liable for not those of the prosecution? In addition to his (which may or may not be paid by the legal aid).
Yes the 100k costs are the costs associated with taking it to court, those costs would have been avoidable if he'd pled guilty. But I don't think he's liable, I think his defence is. Otherwise one day if you or I was wrongly accused of something and were in court defending ourselves we might wimp out of defence because we are worried about the cost if we lost.

Quote:
Given that it is a MOVING exclusion zone maybe the motorboat wasn't in it when he broke down?
Possibly. The wording in the bye-law is: "The master of a small vessel shall ensure that the vessel does not enter a Moving Prohibited Zone."

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He won't get legal aid, he earns too much and has assets.
Does he? He's no longer paid by the Navy?
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Old 27 October 2013, 13:46   #239
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If he's longer being paid by the navy then they ain't going to give him legal aid are they, if he's got a house and car he won't get it, it's hard to get legal aid
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