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Old 06 February 2016, 07:54   #11
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The Cooper seems relatively expensive, what benefit do we see over a standard Bruce etc?

I've used grapnels in small boats - but probably a bag of sand would work! I use a danforth and a Bruce but I have an anchor locker, and so don't have storage issues. If I did a folding grapnel would likely be my "day time pit stop" choice.
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Old 06 February 2016, 08:19   #12
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The Cooper seems relatively expensive, what benefit do we see over a standard Bruce etc?
I have no experience of the Cooper but I've yet to find anything bad written about them. Its not clear if thats because they are great or if the have been better targetted to small end craft where in many cases as you say a sandbag might have been enough!

There are some design tweaks that are nice ideas. They mean that even if it lands upside down it will be turned over when setting in sand. They also mean there are in effect two barbs rather than 1 to cling on with.

The nylon construction means you can pick exactly where to be weighted at the design stage to make it land better and dig in right. The makers claim in soft surfaces that mean it sinks in further.

Nylon construction is presumably low maintenance. Also lightweight. So a 1.5kg nylon may be no better than a 3kg Bruce. But its 1.5kg lighter which may make lifting it easier etc. There may also be a little flex which may be better to keep a hold rather than a stiffer configuration that might be jerked free if it was badly gripping...

Their anchoring guide gives an interesting alternative to standard lots of chain arguement...
Technical Info - Cooper Anchors International - How it Works

Video explains the marketing spin:
Video - Cooper Anchors International

But I don't think I've ever seen a video of a bruce burried that deep.

That said I have a Danforth Clone that does fine but the sideways pointy bits make it quite bulky and a pain.
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Old 06 February 2016, 08:43   #13
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Many thanks for providing information great to hear views of experienced water users.
Cheers Phil
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Old 06 February 2016, 09:26   #14
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Originally Posted by ShinyShoe View Post
I have no experience of the Cooper but I've yet to find anything bad written about them. Its not clear if thats because they are great or if the have been better targetted to small end craft where in many cases as you say a sandbag might have been enough!

There are some design tweaks that are nice ideas. They mean that even if it lands upside down it will be turned over when setting in sand. They also mean there are in effect two barbs rather than 1 to cling on with.

The nylon construction means you can pick exactly where to be weighted at the design stage to make it land better and dig in right. The makers claim in soft surfaces that mean it sinks in further.

Nylon construction is presumably low maintenance. Also lightweight. So a 1.5kg nylon may be no better than a 3kg Bruce. But its 1.5kg lighter which may make lifting it easier etc. There may also be a little flex which may be better to keep a hold rather than a stiffer configuration that might be jerked free if it was badly gripping...

Their anchoring guide gives an interesting alternative to standard lots of chain arguement...
Technical Info - Cooper Anchors International - How it Works

Video explains the marketing spin:
Video - Cooper Anchors International

But I don't think I've ever seen a video of a bruce burried that deep.

That said I have a Danforth Clone that does fine but the sideways pointy bits make it quite bulky and a pain.
I'm a cynic. Those aren't benefits - because there is no real issue with the standard one for most people in most cases! I've never had my bruce or danforth copies slip, or fail to set, nor have they rusted... I've never seen one in person which suggests to me part of the reason there is no negative feedback is that there aren't that many out there. I'm not saying they are bad I just not sure they are better... Lifting the anchor isn't going to be an issue for any normal sibber.
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Old 06 February 2016, 11:13   #15
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I'm a cynic. Those aren't benefits - because there is no real issue with the standard one for most people in most cases! I've never had my bruce or danforth copies slip, or fail to set, nor have they rusted... I've never seen one in person which suggests to me part of the reason there is no negative feedback is that there aren't that many out there. I'm not saying they are bad I just not sure they are better... Lifting the anchor isn't going to be an issue for any normal sibber.
But I've experienced and seen grapnels repeatedly drag in a tide, even to the extent of a neighbouring boat giving up with a grapnel and running a line to the back of my boat and sharing my cooper. Think mine cost 20-30? about five years ago, not that expensive and it's still as good as new - with the added bonus of the nylon body corrosion free. Grapnels are old technology, there's better out there
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Old 06 February 2016, 11:27   #16
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But I've experienced and seen grapnels repeatedly drag in a tide, even to the extent of a neighbouring boat giving up with a grapnel and running a line to the back of my boat and sharing my cooper. Think mine cost 20-30? about five years ago, not that expensive and it's still as good as new - with the added bonus of the nylon body corrosion free. Grapnels are old technology, there's better out there
Did they drag with a sensible sized anchor, with chain, proper scope and set by someone who knew what they were doing? Was that with a small SIB or a much bigger boat?

My anchors are corrosion free - they are galvanised. I can't remember what I paid for them - but I think each was about 1/2 the price of a similar sized cooper.

I agree there are better anchors than grapnels for many applications - but I don't think there is a perfect anchor for SIB use.
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Old 07 February 2016, 04:44   #17
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I'm a cynic.
We know!
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Originally Posted by Poly View Post
Those aren't benefits - because there is no real issue with the standard one for most people in most cases!
If there was no issue the recommendation would always buy the cheapest you can find. Yes for many people a grap will do the job first time. But are most people on here not saying "I don't think its perfect - but its the most practical for size".
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I've never had my bruce or danforth copies slip, or fail to set,
I've only ever once had an anchor fail to set and it was a (bloody heavy) CQR with a load of chain and scope. It was blowing a hooley on mud/sand, with wind shifts of about 60degrees. It set on second try and I think it was just bad luck. That was on a big(ish) hard boat.

Haven't used a grappy for years for anything other than race marks. Race marks not a million miles different from a SIB but not so well suited to have scope and chain.

I think the number of times you anchor without control of how it lands on the bottom must be a major factor in this. Someone anchoring in clear water in 10ft of water who can see the bottom and nice conditions can set it all great. Someone in a choppy 20ft where the bottom is muddy and so churned up you can't see the bottom and it becomes chuck and hope. I think added to that the number of times people anchor in completely unknown spots where they don't know the lying of the land etc will affect how often they have failures. That and how long you sit there.

The cooper was designed for the Aussies - perhaps there conditions are so much different from yours...

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nor have they rusted...
I would agree with you on that although some of the big boat guys do report rust issues so it does happen. I suspect like above it depends how often you deploy and to what substrate and for how long. Yacht on a rocky bottom for every night for 8 weeks of the summer is bound to do some damage to the zinc? SIB for 1 hour on sand...?
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I've never seen one in person which suggests to me part of the reason there is no negative feedback is that there aren't that many out there.
There are reasonable numbers in use Australia for their age (only been around 5 years or so). Unlike you to take the "I've never seen it, so it can't be true" stance :-P
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Lifting the anchor isn't going to be an issue for any normal sibber.
OK so perhaps I used an unlikely example although even lifting race mark anchors I've seen some people struggle with relatively light lumps of steel on the end.

If you look at the kayak market where you need to move any extra weight yourself the obvious direct competitors would be:

Boatworld 1.5kg Grapnell Anchor Kit - 3lb, no chain. 17.95 with 25ft rope and float. Is coated. Does the coating protect your kayak?

Folding 1.5kg Grapnel Anchor
- 1.5kg 6.35 - galvanised. No rope.

0.7KG HOT DIP GALVANISED FOLDING GRAPNEL ANCHOR - Folding Grapnel Anchors - Discount Marine Chandlery and Sailing Equipment. Bargain Boat Spares and Clothing 0.7kg-at least the shipping should be cheap! 4.49

Galvanised Cruising Danforth Anchor - 7.50, 1,5kg. In my experience they are not as easy to store as you'd expect.

Slightly easier to store (but does lack of spikey bits that get in the way for storage also mean lack of holding if it rolls?) Britany Anchor - 2 kg - Discount Marine Chandlery and Sailing Equipment. Bargain Boat Spares and Clothing 12.99

1KG Claw Bruce Style Anchor - Galvanised - Claw Bruce Style Anchors - Discount Marine Chandlery and Sailing Equipment. Bargain Boat Spares and Clothing - 1kg 8.99 (Is a 1kg bruce as good as a 1.5kg of the others? But an absolute pain to store)

(All prices above exclude shipping and were picked from a random google search and are not endorsements of suppliers etc)

Based on the above you can either compromise completely on weight and have a 0.7kg grapnel and have cheapy as chips, Or put the size up to 1.5kg. Or go for a dinky 230g cooper. (That model doesn't have all the features I don't think). Will cost 24.12 delivered from cooper direct.

The Cooper is probably not as easy to store as a 0.7 or even 1.5kg grappy. But will be easier than any of the others. Kayak video:


Which would you rather paddle? 230g or 700g or 1500g?

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Originally Posted by Fender View Post
with the added bonus of the nylon body corrosion free.
Do you think the nylon protects your boat?

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Originally Posted by Poly View Post
My anchors are corrosion free - they are galvanised.
Does your anchor have any madding to protect your boat?
Quote:
I can't remember what I paid for them - but I think each was about 1/2 the price of a similar sized cooper.
They are pricier. Thats reality of a patented design that people can't copy. in 20 years time I expect we may see a few cooper copies!
But you have to compare correct size for boat with correct size for boat - it can't be weight for weight.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Poly View Post
I agree there are better anchors than grapnels for many applications - but I don't think there is a perfect anchor for SIB use.
FTFY
As an anchor a grapnel is almost never going to be the best of breed. For storage it may well be.
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Old 07 February 2016, 06:05   #18
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Haven't used a grappy for years for anything other than race marks. Race marks not a million miles different from a SIB but not so well suited to have scope and chain.
so presumably they actually work OK even with limited scope?

Quote:
I think the number of times you anchor without control of how it lands on the bottom must be a major factor in this. I think added to that the number of times people anchor in completely unknown spots where they don't know the lying of the land etc will affect how often they have failures.
I think you are doing it wrong!
Quote:
That and how long you sit there. The cooper was designed for the Aussies - perhaps there conditions are so much different from yours...
so whats your point for typical SIB use in the UK? Are you on the marketing team for Cooper? I don't think I've suggested there is anything wrong with them - I'm just wondering why it would be preferable to the "norm".

Quote:
I would agree with you on that although some of the big boat guys do report rust issues so it does happen. I suspect like above it depends how often you deploy and to what substrate and for how long. Yacht on a rocky bottom for every night for 8 weeks of the summer is bound to do some damage to the zinc? SIB for 1 hour on sand...?
are you arguing with yourself? Even with the cooper the anchor might not rust but the chain is still metal (so if worn through the galv will do).

Quote:
Unlike you to take the "I've never seen it, so it can't be true" stance :-P
where did I do that?

Quote:
OK so perhaps I used an unlikely example although even lifting race mark anchors I've seen some people struggle with relatively light lumps of steel on the end.
A kilo or two lighter anchor isn't going to make much difference on a SIB which is 30 cm above the water (v's a hardboat 1m+ freeboard) especially is when its in the water (a) most of the weight is chain (b) a significant proportion of the weight is reduced by the displacement of the water.

Quote:
If you look at the kayak market where you need to move any extra weight yourself the obvious direct competitors would be:
The OP is not looking to anchor a kayak. He has a nice stable SIB, with an engine. Don't confuse the best compromise kayak anchor with the best compromise SIB anchor.

Quote:
Does your anchor have any madding to protect your boat?
?? My anchors sit on top of the chain which sits on top of the rope no padding needed.

Quote:
As an anchor a grapnel is almost never going to be the best of breed. For storage it may well be.
And as willk said ages ago - if a well stored anchor is always on board it will be far more use than one left ashore.
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Old 07 February 2016, 07:06   #19
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Top marks for the use of the "multi quote" button dude.
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Old 07 February 2016, 09:44   #20
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I think a lot depends on why you are anchoring?

If I'm popping out for the day and may decide to drop a pick whilst fishing or swimming then the grapnel will do just nice.

If I'm leaving the boat unoccupied or overnight then a larger one will be taken and used, I only carry the grapnel as standard as although I have a locker the larger one fills it and takes up usable space.

Changing them is as simple as undo the shackle and do it back up again. The grapnel is always on board, connected, ready to go.

It works better then not having one.
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