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Old 20 June 2005, 11:08   #1
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What happnes when you don't use the kill cord!

I can't be bothered to copy and past the pictures, but here is a link to YBW and shows what happens when the kill cord is not used!

Anybody recognise it?
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Old 20 June 2005, 11:24   #2
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Hello David

When you get the full size pics sent can you email them please. Did you have a good weekend.
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Old 20 June 2005, 11:41   #3
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Again another saftey thing , its there for a reason use it , !!
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Old 20 June 2005, 12:06   #4
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All ways have the kill cord on evan if you are going out 4 a min. o yer u beta test it as well. as one of the boater i know was up a long side the jetty got up to tie the ropes on and pull out the dead man and the motor was still goin so fat lot of good that kill cord is.

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Old 20 June 2005, 13:57   #5
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haha , ours was the other way round , we were going along , and my dad got up to fix something and the kill cord cut the engine and flooded it aswell , we were stranded for about 3 hours
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Old 21 June 2005, 03:34   #6
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So how do you stop a run away rib then? Someone on the other forum mentioned fouling the prop with a floating line. Or jumping on from another moving boat. Both sound pretty hap-hazard. How about lassowing from a larger boat
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Old 21 June 2005, 04:47   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boatster
So how do you stop a run away rib then? Someone on the other forum mentioned fouling the prop with a floating line. Or jumping on from another moving boat. Both sound pretty hap-hazard. How about lassowing from a larger boat
The following report details the soton boat show incident.

http://www.maib.gov.uk/cms_resources...ety_504262.pdf

Incidentally, it was stopped by some rather fancy driving by the atlantic 75 cox'n at the time where he basically rammed the ILB into the RIB, and then told one of his crew to jump aboard and disable the craft. The maib didn't think that this was overly necessary.

OH, one thing that always confuses me. RYA instructors are always told to 'practise what they preach' when training novices. But the last time i looked the RNLI don't use killcords in any conditions, and still really push the message that they are essential. Surely an Atlantic 75 driver is equally as likely to fall out while he's out in a force 7 with 8ft high waves than any other ribster. And I don't think P22s have them fitted as standard. What about if you're driving an outboard powered displacement boat?

The other massively impractical thing that I don't like is that the RYA say that you have to be wearing the killcord while you start the engine on the manual start engines? Does anyone else find this makes it difficult to start a tiller steered outboard while you have the cord attached around the shoulder of your buoyancy aid (as per RYA recommendations)?

I think that when on a small planing boat, killcords are like seatbelts and should be essential, but i've always had a few reservations about using them in certain situations.
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Old 21 June 2005, 05:42   #8
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very interesting thread - a wake up call for sure - always carry a spare too and tell your passengers where it is if need be
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Old 21 June 2005, 06:42   #9
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Matt

I would totally agree that killcords are an essential safety item and indeed the RYA line is “killcord on when engine running”. The reason (as I understand it) that the RNLI don’t have killcords on the 21/75/85 is that there is a balance to strike between the benefits of the killcord and the risk of killing the engines inadvertently at the most inopportune moment.

In your example

Quote:
RYA instructors are always told to 'practise what they preach' when training novices. But the last time i looked the RNLI don't use killcords in any conditions, and still really push the message that they are essential
I think you are comparing two very different groups of individuals. On the one hand RYA Instructors are teaching best practice. It may be their audience is experienced or inexperienced but in the normal course of events a kill cord is essential and there are no downsides to its use. On the other hand (the RNLI Coxswain) you have an extremely well trained and experienced helm who is likely to put his/her craft often into situations where an engine kill may prove fatal.

I wear a kill cord 99.99% all of the time. When I don’t (eg a rescue situation on a lee shore with a need to position the craft then rapidly recover the casualty – where an inadvertent kill of the engine would be disastrous) it is because I will have made a judgement call balancing all of the inherent risks in my decision and being mindful of the fact that it will be me before the MAIB if it goes pear shaped. The RNLI has made a judgement call and in the above example so have I.

The parallel is that on RYA courses you are taught that the default position is ‘engine off’ in MOB recovery situations. However it is accepted (and publically stated by the RYA) that as a helmsman you will need to assess whether you do switch off given the prevailing circumstances – ie a very competent helm, difficult conditions, close to a lee shore etc . However it is far better to teach that the default is engine off (or kill cord on) then as helms become more adept they can make their own judgement calls – and be prepared to back them.

So in summary I would disagree that the RNLI or RYA’s position is contradictory in any way whatsoever – it is simply a matter of circumstance.

Paul
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Old 21 June 2005, 06:54   #10
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Quote:
Anybody recognise it?
Is it a Shakepeare then? Take it you mean it's one of yours then David - what were you demoing at the time??!!??

,

Paul

PS: For the avoidence of doubt (& litigation) this is a joke!
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Old 21 June 2005, 15:12   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt Riley

The other massively impractical thing that I don't like is that the RYA say that you have to be wearing the killcord while you start the engine on the manual start engines? Does anyone else find this makes it difficult to start a tiller steered outboard while you have the cord attached around the shoulder of your buoyancy aid (as per RYA recommendations)?
ERRRR!
Sorry but where does it say you attach the killcord to the shoulder of your buoyancy aid.Try it round your leg next time. It's much easier.When do i not wear a kill cord beach launch and leeshore recovery .
Tim Griffin RLSS.UK Rescueboat Trainer Assessor
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Old 21 June 2005, 16:48   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Glatzel
Solent Ranger



Take it you mean it's one of yours then David - what were you demoing at the time??!!??


Paul

PS: For the avoidence of doubt (& litigation) this is a joke!

Cheeky bugger! As it happens I was own boating on a Bayliner 2885 - ask Tim G and Simon H. We were all doing our anchoring in the same place on Sunday.

Honest guv, not a word of a lie Anyway, we didn't have a boat down here this weekend

How's things with you?
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Old 22 June 2005, 10:25   #13
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where mine round my wrist , when i remember , but i dont think about it untill we are actually pickin up speed !
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Old 22 June 2005, 10:33   #14
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Originally Posted by tim griffin
ERRRR!
Sorry but where does it say you attach the killcord to the shoulder of your buoyancy aid.Try it round your leg next time. It's much easier.When do i not wear a kill cord beach launch and leeshore recovery .
Tim Griffin RLSS.UK Rescueboat Trainer Assessor
Errr...On the big blue poster which was sent to all clubs and RTEs last year with nice pictures of David Ritchie (RYA National Sailing Coach) sitting on one of the avon adventure ribs from the youth rib challenge. It states that the killcord should be attached round the leg in centre console boats, and for boats like commandoes and SIBs with the tiller steered outboards, it states that you should wear it around the shoulder of the BA (ie not around the wrist). Also produced were some rather snazzy white and blue RYA stickers entitled 'guidelines for safety boat users' which are prominently displayed on a number of club safety craft which if i remember correctly, the sentiment is also expressed on. It is also taken verbatim from Di Tillsley's (RTE inspector) advice from an inspection which I was present at about 18 months ago and raised this specific issue.

Having said this though, it does make a lot of sense to put it round the leg if the cord is long enough, although I generally only clip on once I've got the engine running (in neutral)
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Old 22 June 2005, 10:40   #15
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How many people put their seatbelt on before starting the car?
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Old 22 June 2005, 10:47   #16
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Have to say I am a bit anal when it comes to this.
Always have mine on no matter what.
Have not come across a sittuation where it is a hinderence.

On the patrol boat, the cox always has it on no matter what we are doing.
He/she drives the boat and does not, 99.99% of the time, get involved with what the crew are doing.
Surely this should be the case for the RNLI boy and girls too?

If you want to know if an RNLI crew can fall out of the boat just ask the crew from Whitstable!!!

The dangers of a run away boat are huge.
The Southampton Boat Show story goes to prove this.

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Old 22 June 2005, 10:52   #17
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1. Do wear the killcord! - get into the habit of always putting it on. Why not create a competition when you go boating - person who fails to put it on has to do a dare or something - you'll all soon remember! In the link posted had the person fallen out still be near the boat then they would be underneath it as it circles. You can envisage the mess you would leave on the prop! 2. Don’t use your wrist. On your craft wear it round the knee – around the wrist it has the potential to slip off too easily

Regarding your post Matt the key point it that it is looped round something and clipped back PROPERLY onto the cord. You will form a view on what serves the boat your are using best as to whether that is the knee or not but as you state certainly not the wrist.

As an aside there is a report on the MAIB website on a RIB crossing the Solent that lost its helmsman, he was not clipped on properly (although his killcord was attached), the RIB continued into Hamble Point Car Park and he was lucky to be rescued as was heard shouting by a passing yacht – it was dark.

Paul
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Old 22 June 2005, 14:16   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt Riley
Errr...On the big blue poster which was sent to all clubs and RTEs last year with nice pictures of David Ritchie (RYA National Sailing Coach) sitting on one of the avon adventure ribs from the youth rib challenge. It states that the killcord should be attached round the leg in centre console boats, and for boats like commandoes and SIBs with the tiller steered outboards, it states that you should wear it around the shoulder of the BA (ie not around the wrist). Also produced were some rather snazzy white and blue RYA stickers entitled 'guidelines for safety boat users' which are prominently displayed on a number of club safety craft which if i remember correctly, the sentiment is also expressed on. It is also taken verbatim from Di Tillsley's (RTE inspector) advice from an inspection which I was present at about 18 months ago and raised this specific issue.

Having said this though, it does make a lot of sense to put it round the leg if the cord is long enough, although I generally only clip on once I've got the engine running (in neutral)
Well you live and learn something new everyday . So my killcord is attached to my BA (EXCEPT WE WEAR LIFEJACKETS) no chance of getting tangled up in that then , think i will stick to the way we teach in the RLSS and thats around your leg, think also I will stick to the way I teach when I do RYA safety boats sorry to be negative next time I am inspected I shall mention it. Its an interesting one thats for sure but i am still not convinced it's best practice but alway's keen to learn.

Oh Paul
sorry mate Dave is right flash bugger was swanning around in a Binliner with a nice awning to keep the nasty sun off his fair features , poor old me an Simon were toughing it out in the sun doing our bit for Ambre Solaire factor 30.
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Old 22 June 2005, 14:35   #19
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Killcords

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon Brooks
Have to say I am a bit anal
As they say on Sky Sports - you can stop it there!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon Brooks
the cox always has it on Surely this should be the case for the RNLI boy and girls too?
And yes, probably 90% of the time it would make sense. But how many peeps have suddenly "lost" engine power or struggled with a restart only to look about sheepishly after a minute or two of puzzlement - thanks to passing crew, leaning across for something, etc...E.g. crew positioning to board a cas vsl in wx, caught in mast/rigging over the side of a dinghy, etc.

HQ has seriously reviewed this. Despite being volunteers, we are subject to the full rigour of H&S and all that entails. HQ, and I think most crew would agree, continue to hold the position that it's safer without. The probability of losing power at the wrong moment is perceived to be greater than the probability of all three (trained) ILB crew (with toestraps & secure seating, & generally hanging on) falling out as a result of the boat not going past 90deg. (mercury tilt switch kills engines past that). A further consideration is the quality of PPE worn by the crews - there is evidence out there that someone, wearing a Gecko, was struck on the head by a s/s propellor at full chat and escaped (!) with a hairline cranial fracture.

Also, while our boats can do many great and scary things they actually don't do it very fast or with huge acceleration ! 32kts is full chat on an Atlantic with 3 up.

And another thought..there is no ignition key switch on an ILB - very hard to waterproof - same goes for the killswitch. Maybe a reason why some don't work?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon Brooks
If you want to know if an RNLI crew can fall out of the boat just ask the crew from Whitstable!!!
Now now Jon...they didn't fall out of the boat more than the boat fell over on them!

But to end my rant - when on any powerboat other than the ILB - absolutely 100% no exceptions to wearing it unless stepping away from the helm & therefore boat in neutral or engine off.

Cheers & be safe out there

RR
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Old 22 June 2005, 16:55   #20
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I guess that the fundamental thing is that we all wear killcords (and not around our wrists). Because I'm just a humble dinghy inst'r and safety boat driver, i'm required to wear one most of the time when I'm driving as the chances are that i'm being paid to do it. It naturally comes under the policy that many centres have where all staff are obliged to use PBs in a careful and responsible way.

Its just about getting into good habits which will 99% of the time stand you in good stead.

I was just curious about the reasons why the RNLI don't believe that killcords are right for them. Now I know, and thats the great thing about RIBnet!

Just one thought though for the atlantic boys. How about setting the throttle friction so that the levers return to slow idle when the helm is not holding the throttles (a bit like you can do on the tiller steered OBMs)? This would have a similar effect if the helm falls out, without the legitimate problems associated with wearing killcords.

Anyway, this is the end of my relatively inexperienced and slightly opinionated ramblings on the subject!
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