Tragedy at Padstow - 5 May 2013

[C2 RIBS]

Originally Posted by Mollers

Precisely. There has been so much misinformation re steering. Jeremy Vine had an Rya expert on his prog yesterday, explaining how the steering would flop to hard over due to torque reaction.

I suppose that depends on whether the hydraulics are still working and in which case as cookee says will hold a course until boat is knocked off by wave etc or a slow starboard run, but from an incident we attended a few years ago - hydraulic steering failed ( can not recal exactly what gave out) but this meant the engine on transom had nothing to hold it in place and due to torque of engine/prop at 20-25knts the boat turn violently to starboard throwing everyone out of the boat, on this occassion the kill cord worked and stopped the boat outright. Even those people in the water (recovered as we arrived) were in shock and that was mid summer

[cptsideways]

Originally Posted by Cookee;The footage of the boat being brought under contro which was presumably not that much later in the day showed flat calm water?
[IMG

http://www.skyhooked.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/cropped-LQ1A7550pac.jpg[/IMG]

This is precisely why I brought the subject up!!

Padstow harbour opens out to an estuary, the estuary can be completely flat water & to anybody who does not know the area they would assume it to be perfectly safe looking, it has beautiful clear waters too most of the year, frequent Dolphin sightings etc. The estuary opens into Daymer bay which opens NW is fully exposed to any prevailing swell that can come from the Atlantic.

I have been there windsurfing with a 5-8m swell (that is the massive!!!) coming through & down the estuary it can be epic because of the funnelling effect, a bit like the Severn Bore.

However trust me on this, you can be near the Doombar to the south of the estuary near the old lifeboat station, on an incoming tide in perfectly flat waters & get totally swamped from a wave that appears with seconds as it nears the shallows. Even in completely flat waters with no wind you can get massive waves appearing from nowhere.

Wkipedia: For centuries, the Doom Bar was regarded as a significant danger to ships—to be approached with caution to avoid running aground. It has accounted for over 600 beachings, wrecks and capsizings since records began early in the 19th century,[10] with about 300 being wrecks.[11]

Check out this filmed at Daymer Bay/Doombar it kind of shows what I'm on about Daymer Bay on Vimeo

This image shows the sandbar that is exposed at low tide, there have I think been hundreds of shipwrecks on it.

[Cookee]

Originally Posted by Mollers

Precisely. There has been so much misinformation re steering. Jeremy Vine had an Rya expert on his prog yesterday, explaining how the steering would flop to hard over due to torque reaction.

He's actually correct if it was cable steering, however the likelihood of a 300hp RIB having cable steering is non existent!

Originally Posted by C2 RIBS

I suppose that depends on whether the hydraulics are still working and in which case as cookee says will hold a course until boat is knocked off by wave etc or a slow starboard run, but from an incident we attended a few years ago - hydraulic steering failed ( can not recal exactly what gave out) but this meant the engine on transom had nothing to hold it in place and due to torque of engine/prop at 20-25knts the boat turn violently to starboard throwing everyone out of the boat, on this occassion the kill cord worked and stopped the boat outright. Even those people in the water (recovered as we arrived) were in shock and that was mid summer

I could be wrong but I reckon that the Cobra would have been turning tighter and to Port if the steering had failed suddenly and as a pedantic point it should have turned to Port unless it was using a left handed prop?

[C2 RIBS]

Cheers Cookee. So getting my head around a single engine as described the engine will be forced to port if hydraulics fail on a normal set up engine not as I thought happened

[akirk]

Originally Posted by Rokraider

personally, I often stand as I am going along as I am usually looking for people in the water and want the best view, so a pressure switch would not work for me.

totally agree - I wasn't suggesting a solution - more an observation on the fact that in other areas technologies have become more advanced and could we therefore explore possibilities...

however there will no doubt be different views - maybe the fact that you stand would cause difficulties - but another view (not necessarily mine) might be that the helm should not stand and be looking for people - a spotter should be used - etc.

I think that a big part of the problem is that so much kit has become so easy to use / so advanced - doing so much of the thinking for us, that there are not many areas of life still where you can buy something this powerful and with no training / understanding / thinking take it out... if owners are used to the kit (e.g. cars etc.) doing so much for them now - they may well not think in the right mindset for something like this - yet as we have seen they can be deadly...

I am not sure that we live in a world any more where it works for people to own kit which has such deadly potential hidden in such a friendly easy to use guise and where no automatic safety is built in / no legislation prevents use without training... not that I want legislation etc. - just that if everything else is automatically safe / legislated / not available unless trained / etc. then the areas where that is not so will cause issues

Alasdair

[thomas]

If the stearing had failed would the waterski instructor have been able to drive away like he did?

[HughN]

Not speculating on this incident specifically, but wr.t. steering, wasn't there an MAIB report where the root cause was found to be air in the hydraulics, causing the occupants to be ejected after an uncommanded turn?

[Rokraider]

Originally Posted by akirk

however there will no doubt be different views - maybe the fact that you stand would cause difficulties - but another view (not necessarily mine) might be that the helm should not stand and be looking for people - a spotter should be used - etc.


Alasdair

When driving in big waves, I find it a) comfier to stand b) better visibilty over the wave.
When manoeuvering to pick up a dinghy or sailor, in my experience you have to stand to get a good view to judge your distances.

Personally I can't see any argument for not standing?

[PeterM]

Just read (and spoken to a reliable source) that the guy who jumped on the boat did just pull the kill cord to stop the boat .....

[PGIC]

Originally Posted by PeterM

Just read (and spoken to a reliable source) that the guy who jumped on the boat did just pull the kill cord to stop the boat .....

A video posted on the Guardian appears to show him jump in, then the boat going straight. There could be several interpretations to what is seen in that video. Among them, is the boat being straightened out before it was stopped.
Speedboat left circling Padstow waters following crash - video | UK news | guardian.co.uk

And back to the discussion of which way the boat would be turning if it had a steering failure and comparing that to the videos, it is my understanding that some video cameras reverse left to right. The circling observed in the videos may have been going the other way around the loop?

gary
PropellerSafety.com

[Kiss my bass]

Firstly I would like to offer my condolences to the family, what a shocking accident, and I have no doubts they will live with this for the rest of there lives, it's something that would haunt most of us, and I can only pray I am never unfortunate enough to be in that position.

Secondly, a thank you to the brave person/people who brought the boat under control saving further injuries, we so easily forget the actions of brave men like that, but reality is, tragic accidents can also bring out the best in some folk, he should be proud of his actions, as should all the people and services involved.

Kill cords, I will not detract from the original thread by getting drawn into the argument if it was worn or not, that's a job for the accident investigators, but I will say, I never had the option on my first boat, the controls were so old they did not have the facility, so for years I never used one, recently I changed and the new controls had a kill cord, it never struck me just how important it was until I actually had one on my boat, I would love to think I will always wear it, chances are I may forget it sometimes (poss due to old habits), I have asked the forum poster for the sticker he offered, not only for my benefit, but anyone on my boat will read it (in bold red, obviously placed) and hopefully they will either ask what it's all about and will get educated, or look to see f I am wearing it, can only be a good thing and a reminder for me either way.

The doom bar, I personally have been in and out the camel over it quite a number of times, I have personally witnessed it go from flat calm to waves of 6-8foot in the blink of an eye, it caught me once even though I was aware it could happen, and its an eye opener I can tell you ! It can stop as quick as it starts, on days when it looks so tranquil and safe you would not believe.
I have a very similar sand bar on my home port that has claimed many lives so am respectful and wary of the water at all times.

I don't think regulation is key, but education and awareness.

Please let's not all condemn the man until facts are proven, we all have thoughts on what could have been done better/safer, but we do also all make mistakes, it's a tragedy this family had to pay so dearly, and the next few weeks they have enough to cope with without a lynch mob on the case ! Having said that, some very constructive comments made so far as well.

Robert.

[BogMonster]

Originally Posted by Chris Caton

PD, I like you always use my kill cord, but I too have glanced down on occasion to see it dangling, again but for the grace of God.............. all those who have never made a mistake please step forward!

Yup, done that on a few occasions. I found the best way not to forget is to loop it through the steering wheel when you take it off, but I must admit I've got out of the habit of that lately... note to self.

[akirk]

Originally Posted by Rokraider

When driving in big waves, I find it a) comfier to stand b) better visibilty over the wave.
When manoeuvering to pick up a dinghy or sailor, in my experience you have to stand to get a good view to judge your distances.

Personally I can't see any argument for not standing?

Totally understand - and would agree - is often my preference to stand... just observing that there wil be a mixture of views out there - and many will be from folks who are not regular / experienced users...

Alasdair

[Bigmuz7]

Originally Posted by Cookee

I could be wrong but I reckon that the Cobra would have been turning tighter and to Port if the steering had failed suddenly and as a pedantic point it should have turned to Port unless it was using a left handed prop?

About my position too ... I dont know if it failed in some way, but I did not get the impression the lock was full to starboard. And I agree that it would most likely have been hydraulic steering so not affected by torque, and was most likely in the same position as and when the occupants left, I was also surprised at the lack of speed, (unless my pc did not render the video properly) unless the throttle position was knocked down slightly on exit, Which begs the question,.. what the hec was it that ejected the crew ?

I share everyone elses despair at this whole incident however, and it certainly made me review my safety strategy, which included not using the cord around your wrists, as I have done in the past.

Without labouring the point .. someone mentioned testing the kit regularly, and Ive said before Ive always been an advocate of this, all your safety kit needs to be used from top to bottom to know it works when required, and I sometimes do a kill test, to check operational condition with experienced crew or otherwise to show that you dont just need to hang on when under way, but if the helm throttles back in an emergency, and/or in the case of an ejection.. the deceleration can be severe.

I think we all know the main points though.. a bit like wearing a safety belt in a car, in this kind of boat .. paricularly with that kind of horsepower .. it just needs prioritising.

[PGIC]

Originally Posted by Bigmuz7

I was also surprised at the lack of speed, (unless my pc did not render the video properly) unless the throttle position was knocked down slightly on exit,

One early BBC news report said the "jumper" threw a rope in front of the boat and partially fouled the prop before he jumped in. That may or may not be true. If it is, it could account for the slower speed.

gary
PropellerSafety.com

[Cookee]

Originally Posted by HughN

Not speculating on this incident specifically, but wr.t. steering, wasn't there an MAIB report where the root cause was found to be air in the hydraulics, causing the occupants to be ejected after an uncommanded turn?

Air in hydraulic steering wouldn't cause a sudden failure - In the Guardian video you see the guy straighten up and drive the boat away so the steering was working.

Originally Posted by PGIC

And back to the discussion of which way the boat would be turning if it had a steering failure and comparing that to the videos, it is my understanding that some video cameras reverse left to right. The circling observed in the videos may have been going the other way around the loop?

gary
PropellerSafety.com

And they didn't land on the moon either! Cameras don't reverse things although editing does - that was from a mobile phone unless I'm mistaken and why would anyone want to reverse it anyway? The Guardian video proves the steering was working unless I'm mistaken?

[davesailing2004]

Originally Posted by Anchorhandler

Removed the poster's name??....sorry but how pathetic are you?

Probably not a good time to mention then that on occasion, I exceed the speed limit on the motorway then?

There are times also when i've walked through a hard hat zone without actually wearing one!

I've also been known to not wear safety goggles when using power tools.....

Now using your analogy.. I admit the chances of tripping and being ejected from a boat while moving at slow speed in perfectly calm waters is not impossible..........but like the examples given above...the risk is manageable.

I wrote the post in support of another members point that on occasion he doesnt wear a KC....So all of a sudden we've all become angels around here have we? Come on, how many others have driven a rib (in calm and controled conditions) without a KC?

I'm man enough to admit that even though its not best practice, i have done it. (When conditions allow)

Finally, read my second to last line of my post...

Sorry to distract from the real issues here...


Simon

Without wishing to start an argument, my point was not about forgetting the KC it was deliberately not putting it on because....(insert reason of choice) i.e. only going slowly round the harbour etc

[chris.moody]

Originally Posted by davesailing2004

Without wishing to start an argument, my point was not about forgetting the KC it was deliberately not putting it on because....(insert reason of choice) i.e. only going slowly round the harbour etc

I also struggle with this idea of I don't need the kill cord because ........

We don't leave our seatbelts off and only put them on seconds before impact do we.

[Avocet]

Taking the last couple of posts a stage further, I’ve been trying to think of circumstances where NOT wearing a kill cord would take precedence over wearing one. I can’t come up with many:
• Coming in to moor when solo. This is probably the most common and is virtually unavoidable but by leaving the cord attached until the last minute, speed should be slow or nil and the time of unattachment will be kept to a minimum thus reducing any risk.
• To prevent accidental tripping of the cord. Frankly this strikes me as being a hardware issue which needs righting since a correctly worn cord of a suitable length should not produce this problem.
• When stationary but unanchored or trolling (eg while stopped for a picnic/drink or drift fishing). In this case the engine is likely to be in neutral and with little risk. There is still the possibility of accidentally pushing the throttle but if this is a concern why not turn the engine off?
• Because wearing a kill cord is uncomfortable. Nobody has actually mentioned this as a scenario but it is, I suppose, a possibility. Again, however, it is a hardware issue that can be addressed by means of an alternative solution.
• Oversight. This can never be ruled out owing to human error but the possibility can be reduced by a) keeping the kill cord attached to the wearer so that the engine cannot be started the cord being connected; b) warning notices and c) getting crew to remind/check the helm whenever setting off.
Other than the above situations, I can think of no circumstances in which there is a downside to wearing a kill cord…. SO WHY NOT WEAR ONE?

[simsy]

The sand bar waves coming from nowhere at this location could catch out even an experienced skipper by the looks of them. I saw similar ones near Rhosneigr, smaller, but still very dangerous and came from nowhere.

The hydraulic steering failure seems unlikely on this boat, but think back to an equally tragic event on Loch Lomond a few years back, this was triggered by hydraulic steering failure, due to bad mainenance.